Tuolumne Bolt Chopping

JCMwrote:

Aren't you the one assuming a certain style of ascent (rap bolted) based on a convoluted semantic argument and one interpretation of the way the term "FA" is used. Mei is making a well-backed argument that the use of the terms FA vs FFA can be complicated and vary based on context. This pretty thoroughly refutes the assumption you are making that the route must have been rap-bolted.

Do you find Mei's argument insufferable since it shows the flaws in your logic?

Ok fine I cleared my schedule and went back and read it.  Decently sound (while quite involved) I'll admit.

I'll clarify that my beef here isn't about rap bolting and I haven't directly made that claim.

My beef is taking FA credit when you've been specifically informed that you weren't the first ascent party.  I still stand by my logic that if they did in fact drill those ground up, the FA happened previously, likely with aid tactics (as plenty of routes go up in that style).  And later they mustered up the courage, fitness, technique to free their newly equipped variation.

While one seems more likely to me, I don't care to argue about it here at all.  

It's certainly small, seemingly trivial, and maybe even pointless but I care about the principle of being honest in climbing in historical areas.  In a thread that's full of people touting ego this and that it seems painfully relevant and lame.

JCMwrote:

With the "FKA" approach - how does that impact route management decisions if an older FA is later claimed? With the "first ascent principle" that many climbers believe in, the FA party has significant (final?) say in changes to the route. 

If you clean/bolt/FKA a nice moderate route and open it up the the masses, and then later someone  comes out of the woodwork to say they climbed it 30 years as a licheny solo or runout trad route following the same line, do they now have the FA "ownership" and get the dictate how the modern bolted route is managed? 

As a more specific hypothetical: what happens if someone turns up and claims that they soloed up and down every inch of the Emigrant Wall 30 years ago, which they say gives them FA "ownership" of the wall. And they demand that all the bolts on the wall be removed (or they go remove all the bolts themself) since they are now retrobolts added the the previously-soloed routes. What do we do then? Do we accept the erasure of a popular resource for new climbers, just to satisfy the FA "property rights" of that one old guy?

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that a Free Solo "FA" of dead easy friction routes is not in the same category as the same route put up with hours and hours of drilling to make a well protected route. One is a gesture of giving to the community the other is narcissism (when it is claimed as a sacrosanct FA).

John Bachar's free solo (effectively) of You Asked For It (5.10+ full rope length no pro) was cutting edge on sight free soloing although he had a bolt kit if he thought he needed to stop and drill. It was part of training for the BY. YAFI is going to give anyone in the world pause and remains a test piece. That is legitimate to me and I honor that as a true FA.

Free Soloing a 5.5 slab and then denying anyone the opportunity to bolt it for others to enjoy is the height of arrogance and selfishness. If they demanded FA "ownership" I'd suggest they needed therapy. Creating a test piece for hard men/women the world over is one thing, taking from the community that has very few easy and well protected slabs in this day and age is another, imo, and would be solely done for egotistical purposes, imo. 

Runouts like on Eunuch (1971) or South Crack (1965) are totally different and historic routes done at the dawn of slab climbing and climbed in hiking boots with primitive bolting gear. They should remain un-retro bolted. They were cutting edge in their day.

That is entirely different than any easy free solo on slab post sticky rubber shoes ie about 1985 when walking up 5.9 friction became a thing. If its dead easy for the soloist, let it go and certainly no one "aspires" to be a "badass" 5.5 slab climber whereas a route like You Asked For It remains badass to this day. Hell, you should be embarrassed to spray that you soled 5.5 slab, imo, and to get weird about someone bolting it is just.... weird.

Matt Nwrote:

Local history/tradition/ethics.

I thought those still mattered. [Regardless of grade]

Nope. Not one bit. 

Unless it does. To you alone. Maybe impress your friends but I wouldn't put it on a resume.

A bolt is a bolt as far as the NPS is concerned and their position is they don't care how it gets there as long as it is hand drilled in YNP. That's what the law says.

My recommendation is to go hand drill some bolts on lead (spray alert: I've done probably a hundred or more and I only post this as it's relevant to credibility).

Then come back on your high horse.

In addition to the differences in style and tactics used in creating a "new" route, there are also less obvious differences in motivation and vision. There's the First Ascentionist camp, who see a line that strikes their fancy and they want to climb it. Sometimes these are good routes, sometimes they suck, but all sought after classics come from this camp IMO. And then there's the Developer camp, who see themselves as providing a service to the masses by creating a product, and where the ends always justify the means. Full on developers are needed at some crags for sure, but some places, like Tuolumne, are more the domain of the FA'ist. 

Tuolumne has been a major climbing destination for over 50 years. The odds today of any new piece of rock being bolt-worthy and within 15 minutes from the road are slim. 

Where's Waldenwrote:

Perhaps newer climbers should learn, I dunno, the way that people have been learning since forever? (Or just at of one of the now NINETY gyms in California). I personally did most of my early trad leading in Tuolumne Meadows.

Is 90 supposed to be a lot of gyms for California? Hawaii has 90 Taco Bells.

almostradwrote:

Heaven forbid they lose credit for their proud retro-rap-bolted gift to the masses.
...
If the route was put up ground up, the bolts only go in during the FA (and FFA would be the "actual lead" you describe. The scenario where the bolts are there and someone can claim an FA is indeed when something is rap bolted.  

...
I'll clarify that my beef here isn't about rap bolting and I haven't directly made that claim.

Um...

almostradwrote:

Mei I  stopped reading halfway through but wanted to share that you’re being insufferable 

Aww, thanks for sharing. I agree with you there. Everyone's mind is set; she's convincing nobody and offending some. What a waste of time. 

Bowing out...

Brandon Rwrote: …Tuolumne has been a major climbing destination for over 50 years. The odds today of any new piece of rock being bolt-worthy and within 15 minutes from the road are slim. 

Exactly why those two routes were “created”

and to get weird about someone bolting it is just.... weird.

Too bad. Tuolumne tradition will be defended.

Stay weird.

Christian Heschwrote:

Exactly why those two routes were “created”

What I meant by that statement was more a call for greater restraint when bolting in TM (and other places like it). I don't believe there is a need for these kinds of routes, as you say, given that there are already plenty of routes in TM and outside of TM (and the gym) for beginners to learn on. I get what you said about reducing the crowds on the easy classics, but that's kind of like adding more lanes to the freeway... it won't really solve the congestion problem. 

I'm just going to say it, and I could be wrong, but it kind of appears to me that these routes were put up "for the community" in the same way some social media influencer films themselves giving out $20 bills to the homeless. It doesn't actually solve a real problem, but the recipients love it and it gives the influencer a little bit of fame and a manufactured feeling of being a hero for the downtrodden. And like Mei, I don't put anyone on a pedestal, including those with famous dads. 

And for full disclosure, I don't really think there is a need for most new routes, of any grade, in TM. The place already has plenty enough to last a full climbing career for most of us, assuming it's not the only place you go and that you make at least some attempt at improving over time. That's why I think new bolted routes should emphasize quality over quantity, and should avoid encroaching upon already established routes. Even following the traditional and historic "rules", at some point further development needs to be slowed, else we'll end up with a gridbolted mess of boring routes and even bigger crowds. 

Maybe it's me, but in my tenure not many blink an eye at a new  .11 or .12 going in, god forbid its an easy >.10 that will get the hell climbed out of it.
Seemingly strong/accomplished climbers just bashing on the weak / newbs / scared.... cause they are not that. Just weird to me.
If lots of people end up climbing a given route, IMO it shows there was a hole that needed some filling. why not let time expose if the community "wants" it. This all without saying a general good style should be implemented....a whole other slippy slope.

Also don't forget these need to be hand drilled...that alone will keep grid bolting fears at a great distant I would posture. I really wonder out of all the routes in TM, how many were put in the past decade.....I don't think it a large amount.

Marc801 Cwrote:

What does it matter? More importantly, does the grade matter? 

Marc, I dare say that you don't climb anymore if you think it doesn't matter. If a 5.5 isn't drilled in traditional style in a place like TM it definitely deserves a good cleaning. History matters!

i disagree that because it would be used means that there was a hole that needed to be filled. the extreme of that argument is that if you put a starbucks in the meadows and people get drinks there, it would mean that we needed a starbucks there. i see TM like famous big wave surf spots in Hawaii. you just have to be good enough to do it, it's not the place to learn how to surf.

regarding the access thing - no one is just dropped off in tuolumne without any other option. everyone drives there, and they drive past other crags that fill that niche, where you can learn how to lead safely, and learn how to climb competently. if you want to play in TM, you have to have both already. that's its tradition and it's worth preserving that character in my view.

regarding the bolt chopping - maybe this is a hot take but what's wrong with bolt wars? to place bolts or chop them, it is hard to do impulsively. you have to plan to do it, which means you mull it over and then "state your case" by putting in real effort. it's not like making a derogatory internet comment where you could respond and hurt someone's feelings instantly and effortlessly. you really have to work to make your statement. it's kind of a civil way to have the discussion?

ilya fwrote:

i disagree that because it would be used means that there was a hole that needed to be filled. the extreme of that argument is that if you put a starbucks in the meadows and people get drinks there, it would mean that we needed a starbucks there. i see TM like famous big wave surf spots in Hawaii. you just have to be good enough to do it, it's not the place to learn how to surf.

regarding the access thing - no one is just dropped off in tuolumne without any other option. everyone drives there, and they drive past other crags that fill that niche, where you can learn how to lead safely, and learn how to climb competently. if you want to play in TM, you have to have both already. that's its tradition and it's worth preserving that character in my view.

I see what you're trying to posture with the 'bucks, but that extreme Is not reality as you between the line lay out.
onward, Surfing is again not comparable. each wave different, the rock is steady. Yes it changes, but you and I will experience the same holds on a given climb, and even the next generation. Each wave, unique. I think if the roof on haystack at lovers leap as an example of this.

TM is a huge place. If these climbs and this topic not posted, would there even be a reason to have differing opinion over?

I think where we agree is style. I have no comment on these new routes as I have not climbed them. They could be shit. But it seems from those who have climbed them, they feel a welcome addition. I with hold my judgment until my body have chance for input. Likely with may eldest kiddo, who just turned 5, what an incredible potential inspiration for her, in an incredibly inspiring area. Other crags are not Tuolumne, climbing in a stunning setting is something that makes it worth while.

EDIT: around bolt wars:
It fucks the rock up usually even more 'specially if the bolter comes back to re install or whatever. Not fucking up the roc is the golden goose many choppers are claiming to be in defense of. BW's many times have diminishing returns. History shows talking to each other first usually has better results than BW's.

Competently leading runouts is a learned skill. It used to be a common skill. It has to be practiced to be learned. A 5.9 leader can start on 5.7, then progress to 5.8, then progress to 5.9 runouts. If you can onsite a certain grade, you can lead it runout too, if you have the skills. It is that simple. It was common, once upon a time. For that matter, if you can onsite a certain grade top roped, you can lead it run out, if you have the skills. 

Exactly how runout depends on how skilled.

Plenty of people learned how to lead primarily on old school Tuolumne climbs. But this was primarily before sport climbing existed. Consequently many readers here will not understand this. The requisite skills are fading, eventually into oblivion.

"Castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually". Jimi Hendrix. 

BTW, I don't have anything against easy/moderate (yes that's a slash grade) bolted routes, for budding leaders, or whoever enjoys them. 

Eric Craigwrote:

Competently leading runouts is a learned skill. It used to be a common skill. It has to be practiced to be learned. A 5.9 leader can start on 5.7, then progress to 5.8, then progress to 5.9 runouts. If you can onsite a certain grade, you can lead it runout too, if you have the skills. It is that simple. It was common, once upon a time. For that matter, if you can onsite a certain grade top roped, you can lead it run out, if you have the skills. 

Exactly how runout depends on how skilled.

Plenty of people learned how to lead primarily on old school Tuolumne climbs. But this was primarily before sport climbing existed. Consequently many readers here will not understand this. The requisite skills are fading, eventually into oblivion.

"Castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually". Jimi Hendrix. 

The old skills are not fading per se, people are simply choosing to be more careful with their lives is all.

All the old run out routes are there, and they are climbed less every year. This is due to choices.

When was the last time a party was seen on Grey Ghost or T.H. Sea? How about a Fairview test piece? Big Boys Don't Cry on Lembert? Old school will hold up these climbs as ideal but they never get climbed. Apparently, this "ideal" word doesn't mean what we think it does?

The well protected routes get all the traffic and ones like Zee Tree and Crying Time Again are getting polished and greasy. Even Great White Book is noticeably polished. There is no surplus of well protected slab in TM. LOTS of runout slab that never gets climbed.

Slab is out of fashion anyways (probably to never return) and runout slab most unfashionable of all. People are smarter than you think and as much as I will defend runout historical routes from retro bolting the fact is they are fading into obscurity. People recognize that climbing is too much fun to get killed doing something no one cares about. Who climbs Eunuch anymore? People simply do not aspire to rated R or X routes like they did back in the day when that was held up to be the ultimate in climbing and something you needed to be able to do to be a "good" climber.

At one time Tuolumne was all there was in the summer. Now there are countless sport climbing areas that have cool temps in the summer to travel to.

Sport Climbing steep fun routes with lots of bolts >>>>>way better>>>> than run out slab for 99% of climbers these days. 

I bet Transpire Wall in Tioga Canyon and the other sport areas there get more traffic than all the other 5.10s-5.12s in the Meadows combined.

Hard to argue.

ilya fwrote:

i disagree that because it would be used means that there was a hole that needed to be filled. the extreme of that argument is that if you put a starbucks in the meadows and people get drinks there, it would mean that we needed a starbucks there. i see TM like famous big wave surf spots in Hawaii. you just have to be good enough to do it, it's not the place to learn how to surf.

regarding the access thing - no one is just dropped off in tuolumne without any other option. everyone drives there, and they drive past other crags that fill that niche, where you can learn how to lead safely, and learn how to climb competently. if you want to play in TM, you have to have both already. that's its tradition and it's worth preserving that character in my view.

regarding the bolt chopping - maybe this is a hot take but what's wrong with bolt wars? to place bolts or chop them, it is hard to do impulsively. you have to plan to do it, which means you mull it over and then "state your case" by putting in real effort. it's not like making a derogatory internet comment where you could respond and hurt someone's feelings instantly and effortlessly. you really have to work to make your statement. it's kind of a civil way to have the discussion?

Re: What's wrong with bolting wars? What's wrong with it, and I have sat in that meeting with the Superintendent of YNP, is that their solution to it is to ban bolts altogether. That would spoil the fun quickly. The authorities (Wilderness Managers) tell us to stop chopping bolts and scarring the rock or they'll stop it for us with banning all bolts.

Some of us still aspire and are glad those routes exist to test our mettle.

For some people it's easier to get strong and clip bolts, for others it's easier (and more fun) to have an adventure on an "old school" route. 

If there are more and more well protected new routes, the old scary ones will see less and less traffic. It is a good way to avoid crowds, though.

Some X rated routes would be better to get "updated" to be climbable, but no one can agree on how many bolts, even if the FA says to add them. There's an old thread on the 'taco that I remember about the third pitch of Super Chicken that illustrates this perfectly.

There's no one good answer, and each time this debate comes up, there's never any new angles/ideas. 

Happy climbing. 

ilya fwrote:

...what's wrong with bolt wars? 

Anyone claiming to respect climbing history owes themselves a listen to the Access Fund founder Armando Menocal (RIP).

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/climbing-gold/id1559139153?i=1000667304174

Bolt wars did happen, and it was ugly as you'll hear 17 minutes into the podcast.

I'm not taking sides as I never believed anything should be black and white. I was just trying to make sure people's opinion is not based on incorrect speculation.

thanks mei, i'll listen to that tomorrow

ilya fwrote:

...i see TM like famous big wave surf spots in Hawaii. you just have to be good enough to do it, it's not the place to learn how to surf.

B-Y, Peace, Bombs over Tokyo, etc… yeah, that’s pipe. The place we’re talking about is sunset shore break, on a 2ft day, not macking pipe, or massive jaws. Which seems to drive home the point about the suitability of the routes in question.

regarding the access thing - no one is just dropped off in tuolumne without any other option. everyone drives there, and they drive past other crags that fill that niche, where you can learn how to lead safely, and learn how to climb competently. if you want to play in TM, you have to have both already. that's its tradition and it's worth preserving that character in my view.

In an ideal world? Sure. Is that actually how it works in the real world? Nope. So let’s deal with reality, and make life a little bit better for everyone, ourselves (us uppity, ”badass” climbers) included.

regarding the bolt chopping - maybe this is a hot take but what's wrong with bolt wars? to place bolts or chop them, it is hard to do impulsively. you have to plan to do it, which means you mull it over and then "state your case" by putting in real effort. it's not like making a derogatory internet comment where you could respond and hurt someone's feelings instantly and effortlessly. you really have to work to make your statement. it's kind of a civil way to have the discussion?

Great, then who/where is this chopper and where is his “state your case” manifesto? I’d love to read what he has to say. All i see is a coward/thief who stole a half dozen hangars and bolts, but whose ethics and/or work ethic is shi**y enough that he couldn’t be bothered to fill the holes (which tends to support the “lazy thief” over “ethical chopper” characterization).