New and experienced climbers over 50 #36

Ward Smithwrote:

I have to push back on the idea that keto or paleo is some new fringe diet.  Humans evolved for millions of years on this kind of diet.  Before the invention of agriculture maybe 10,000 years ago, no human ate bread, pasta, or any grains. They ate meat, fish, and whatever plants and fruits they could find.  They did absolutely not eat a high carbohydrate diet.  Keto or paleo may not be the optimal diet, but it is sure as hell not new or fringe.  

Yeah, but what was the average life span 10,000 years ago---just askin'????

Actually, I have no strong feelings on dietary specifics---just believe generally in 'moderation', while being open to an occasional 'splurge'. My wife works hard to keep us healthy, I'll 'cheat' on occasion!!!! 

What would your lifespan be Alan if there were no antibiotics, no surgery to fix broken bones, and you were fighting wild animals every day?  And you had to live outside ?  The low average lifespan 10,000 years ago had nothing to do with a keto diet.   It did have to do with people dying of what are now preventable causes, including starvation.

All I am saying is that we clearly did not evolve eating a high carbohydrate diet. 

I was just kidding, Ward. I don't necessarily disagree with you or agree with you. As I wrote, my view is that moderation is best and I'm dubious of those who advocate for dietary 'extremes'. Obviously, many people are like Lori and have specific conditions that they need to manage, and that's perfectly understandable, but for most of us, if we practice moderation and get adequate exercise, genes and luck will probably matter more than any specific diet.

They probably ate a lot of fruit and starchy roots and tubers, depending on what was available, along with scavenged leftover kills, and the occasional hunted animals when they could, banana splits on Sundays

When my obligate carnivore cat crunches up a mousy whole? She's also eating whatever the vegetarian mousy ate. Just sayin'.

The one that I feel is not sustainable, is vegan. No one has ever eschewed everything from the animal kingdom, until very very recently. It's a first world fantasy. Plus, animals are very important to the ecology out there, including the soil that grows the plants, and the pollinators that pollinate them. No system that I can think of, grows plants.... without nutrient input from animals. You can get a food chain pretty far along, animals eating animals, but at some point those animals were supported by plant eaters, and those plants need more than just sunshine and water. It's a lovely symbiosis. Besides, a whole bunch of vegan stuff is very highly processed foods. 

Oh, and whatever you may think you are doing, paleo, keto, whatever? Unless you are a pure forager, you are eating agricultural products, far far removed  from what existed 10,000 years ago.

H.

Now I'm hungry.

Ward Smithwrote:

I have to push back on the idea that keto or paleo is some new fringe diet.  Humans evolved for millions of years on this kind of diet.  Before the invention of agriculture maybe 10,000 years ago, no human ate bread, pasta, or any grains. They ate meat, fish, and whatever plants and fruits they could find.  They did absolutely not eat a high carbohydrate diet.  Keto or paleo may not be the optimal diet for human health (although it works for me), but it is sure as hell not “new”or “fringe.”

I'm not a paleo biologist but from what I've read hunter gather societies did eat grains. They just didn't plant them but all modern grains descend from wild forebears. 

Ward Smithwrote:

The one thing that has consistently demonstrated longevity benefits in every organism that has been studied is caloric restriction.   

Yes, but for logistical reasons, no data for this in humans - the single, short-term study did show improvement in biomarkers of aging though.

There is a calorie restriction society dedicated to the lifestyle. Their now defunct website was a treasure trove for cutting edge, and often fringe longevity practices. 

Old lady Hwrote:

When my obligate carnivore cat crunches up a mousy whole? She's also eating whatever the vegetarian mousy ate. Just sayin'.

The one that I feel is not sustainable, is vegan. No one has ever eschewed everything from the animal kingdom, until very very recently. It's a first world fantasy. Plus, animals are very important to the ecology out there, including the soil that grows the plants, and the pollinators that pollinate them. No system that I can think of, grows plants.... without nutrient input from animals. You can get a food chain pretty far along, animals eating animals, but at some point those animals were supported by plant eaters, and those plants need more than just sunshine and water. It's a lovely symbiosis. Besides, a whole bunch of vegan stuff is very highly processed foods. 

Oh, and whatever you may think you are doing, paleo, keto, whatever? Unless you are a pure forager, you are eating agricultural products, far far removed  from what existed 10,000 years ago.

H.

Helen, be careful about dissing vegans. Are you familiar with the Zizians? They think that it is so wrong for humans to harm animals, that it is acceptable to kill the humans---and they have left a trail of bodies ( though not necessarily for that reason, but still....).

Colin Rowewrote:

Carbohydrate is classified as non-essential. Regardless of whole or refined it becomes sugar. Sugar poisons the body. Optimal health is avoiding it.

Huh? Carbohydrates are more than just simple sugars.

And while there are biochemical work-arounds to convert other macronutrients into saccharides, we’ve evolved multiple metabolic pathways devoted to carbohydrates. These “poisons” are pretty central to life, all the way down to the ribose in DNA.

Brandt Allenwrote:

Permabeta - thanks so much for your science-based rational info.

As you can see from some of the recent posts people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.

Question: As a lacto-ovo-pescatarian, would I be correct in saying that protein from dairy, eggs, and fish is animal protein? 

Yep

Helen, you know I love you.   

I feel the need to make a disclaimer again. There have been some obnoxious people on mountain project who set themselves up as authorities on various subjects, the most recent one some guy on another thread on protein who just said shut up and do what I say.  He had no credentials, no studies, but just wanted to pontificate. Ridiculous.

The written word is sometimes misleading. I’ve been on my own personal journey here for quite a while, and I like to share what I’m working on. It is never with the intention of telling someone else what they should do or eat. It’s just throwing open the discussion now and then to see what others are doing.  Like I wrote earlier the healthiest person I know is a vegan. I was a vegetarian for many years. I have no skin in this game. I just enjoy the conversation.   

Even finishing the Huberman podcast this morning was frustrating because two Stanford scientists completely disagree on the basics. But all I really care about for me is what works and what doesn’t.  A few years ago, I was so sick with what no doctor could identify until I sniffed my way to a diagnosis and then got my doctor to help with the solution. So some of us have needier bodies. Some here are so darn strong they’ve never had to think about it and I am envious.  

And there are a lot of doctors and PhD‘s out there who are weighing in on diet. Interestingly, I think a lot of forward movement is coming from people sharing their experiences together.  So mine is that I have found a sweet spot for me, protein wise, but also fiber and tons of vegetables and it gets me to the crag and home safe and sound. YMMV.  

So one last thing, I just upgraded to WHOOP 5.0. This has been the biggest surprise for me over the last five years. I really expected WHOOP to be a toy that I would quickly get tired of and leave behind .  Instead, I rely more and more on the daily feedback on strain, heart rate zones, sleep, HRV, etc. Now they have added VO2 max.  The 5.0 looks like a whole new thing and I’m pretty excited about it.  I believe it also integrates with my fitness pal, so you can track things like protein and carbs and see how they affect ability to work out and recover.  If only it would integrate with all the diabetes gadgets attached to my body, that would be heaven, but I’m just grateful for what I got.

Finally, I really enjoyed this podcast last year and listen to it again recently.  He also weighs in first and foremost on protein. 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1SkFzMLZhN50f0jCvmpjS2?si=s2DiaerqTJeLaW4YafgCYQ

my sisters farm last night. 

You can not follow both Christ and the Cruelty of kings. 

A leader who mocks the weak, exalts himself and preys on the innocent  is not sent by god. 

He is here to test you and many are failing. 

pretty sure the new pope said this? 

So, an interesting movie involving agriculture and our food, and a bunch of other stuff, "Common Ground" has finally percolated down to Amazon. I saw it when it premiered, they had an event in Boise. The movie, and some of the people involved with it. Basically it's talking about regenerative farming. 

Talking about grains, I might be the only one on here who has grown grains, extremely small scale, which means I also might be the only one to have a millenniums old joy, to reach out, strip a head or two off some wheat (or oats, or barley, or....), thresh it in my hand, and enjoy it in the milk stage. Unripened. Think fresh corn on the cob (green, or milk stage) vs popcorn, fully ripened and can't eat it from the field.

June, no, all grains are not treated with herbicides. At the very least, organic gets you around that, but even more so, knowing what you're buying, who you are buying it from, and how they choose to nurture those crops that then nurture us. Yeah, that's a tall order.....but it shouldn't be.

Helen 

Edit, shit, cuz I didn't even spell my name rite, but mainly, geez, celiac is tough, Lori! I knew someone way way back, when it was a newish thing, and gluten free was barely starting to be around. Super minimal. So, I researched, took a crack at it, and actually got a not too bad bread for him. Used the various alternative flours and starches, etc. The guy enjoyed it....but then, that bread is how he discovered that he was also unable to eat tapioca. And a lot more. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

my sisters farm last night. 

You can not follow both Christ and the Cruelty of kings. 

A leader who mocks the weak, exalts himself and preys on the innocent  is not sent by god. 

He is here to test you and many are failing. 

pretty sure the new pope said this? 

It was added to a meme of Pope Leo but no evidence he actually said it. I doubt a pope would say something so inflammatory right out of the gate. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

my sisters farm last night. 

You can not follow both Christ and the Cruelty of kings. 

A leader who mocks the weak, exalts himself and preys on the innocent  is not sent by god. 

He is here to test you and many are failing. 

pretty sure the new pope said this? 

Nick,
Maybe Father Dan preached something pretty similar….  

ed “ I think ‘nurture’ wins out over ’nature’ most of the time…” e

Lori Milaswrote:

It was added to a meme of Pope Leo but no evidence he actually said it. I doubt a pope would say something so inflammatory right out of the gate. 

Probably true. Still, the fantasy is still quite enjoyable…

That is why I said probably. However Pope Leo has actually called out the administration on their crazy policies garnering him the wrath of trump and the maga morons. On a funny note Chris Rock,s restaurant in Nashville had to close over the weekend because word got out that ice was raiding down town and all his staff bailed. 

Ward Smithwrote:

I have to push back on the idea that keto or paleo is some new fringe diet.  Humans evolved for millions of years on this kind of diet.  Before the invention of agriculture maybe 10,000 years ago, no human ate bread, pasta, or any grains. They ate meat, fish, and whatever plants and fruits they could find.  They did absolutely not eat a high carbohydrate diet.  Keto or paleo may not be the optimal diet for human health (although it works for me), but it is sure as hell not “new”or “fringe.”

Although I’m certain they weren’t eating bagels and pizza, it’s far from a foregone conclusion that primitive man ate an ultra low carbohydrate diet. There’s a growing body of evidence which suggests our ancestors were pretty omnivorous, with a diverse diet, including grains. Example

In contrast to animal foods, wild plants often require long, multistep processing techniques that involve significant cognitive skills and advanced toolkits to perform. These costs are thought to have hindered how hominins used these foods and delayed their adoption into our diets. Through the analysis of starch grains preserved on basalt anvils and percussors, we demonstrate that a wide variety of plants were processed by Middle Pleistocene hominins at the site of Gesher Benot Ya’aqov in Israel (33° 00’ 30” N, 35° 37’ 30” E), at least 780,000 y ago. These results further indicate the advanced cognitive abilities of our early ancestors, including their ability to collect plants from varying distances and from a wide range of habitats and to mechanically process them using percussive tools.

As far as I can tell, ketogenic diets originated in the 1920s, for the treatment of pediatric seizures. They gained mainstream popularity in the 90s/2000s, based on Dr. Atkin’s book, published in 1972. That’s a blink of an eye in evolutionary time, definitely not millions of years.

But if you really want to go back further, our nearest primate relatives, chimpanzees and bonobos, definitely eat plant-based diets.

I finally got to return to my favorite route on my favorite wall today. (Torturers Apprentice). I had been thinking about it all year. The wall is magnificent and I hike out to admire it frequently.

The climbing is HARD.   Much harder than I remember. About halfway up the route the climbing suddenly felt impossible… tiny holds, big exposure. I didn’t have the right strength in my legs or arms. Not enough crimp strength. Couldn’t figure out a sequence to get through the first crux.  And I kept thinking WHAT AM I EVEN DOING HERE? I don’t HAVE to do this. This is awful.  I could be home watching tv.

And then I realized I was singing Cherokee’s song.  

After a little rest Bob went up and marked some holds through the first crux. Bob wasn’t sailing through it and I realized this is indeed a challenging route.  I thought I was done for the day and maybe forever but I tied in again and gave it another shot.  I’m really glad I did because those impossible crux moves smoothed out.  It’s a huge encouragement to have gotten a good part of this route under the belt.  I think I can do the rest.   

Cherokee, except for laying on the rocks and catching a tan it’s ALL Type 2 fun.  Why do we do it?

On reflection I think it would be helpful if I didn’t take difficulty personally.