New and experienced climbers over 50 #36

Cherokee. Thank you for those posts. They are excellent!!!

As for Li. He posted some very strong opinions and blanket statements. I think it totally appropriate that some of us responded to contest those statements---that's what discussions are supposed to involve--give and take. Actually, when disputed, he would often respond--so continue to participate in said give and take, while obviously thereby opening himself up to further rebuttal. I don't consider that to be piling on. It seems, though, that the 'turning point' was when someone, surprisingly considering how much he has been involved in this thread,opined that he was a 'bot'. Obviously strange and incorrect, but I don't see why he considered it to be a racist comment, and sufficiently hurtful for him to leave. But that was his choice. I hope that he reconsiders, though. I disagree with him about many things, but it has been interesting to hear his perspective on things.

Cherokee…I thought about your post all day.  No matter how many years I have missed or how much skill I’ll never have, I totally understand your words.  I’m just sitting with it… thank you so much.   

Tony is getting his hip replacement next Thursday. It kind of blows my mind that he’s doing this… we picked up his pre-surgery meds today.  I’m pulling them out of the bag one by one. I understand the Norco I guess. I understand the 30 days of Doxycycline… although I don’t know if he has a bug of any kind left after the last debacle.  But Lyrica?  WHY?  

Today was movie day. I chose Snakes on a Plane… kind of as a goof.  But it was awful.  So, swapping it out for The Thornbirds.  A very difficult series to find.  It’s been 30 years and I’m in the mood for romance.  Richard Chamberlain was so handsome, and Meggie such a beauty.  

I don't think I was piling on. I exist on gut reactions. Not enough filter. Dude said some wacky shit and I simply called him on it..  

Cherokee. That was great story telling and an amazing adventure. 

Eric Engbergwrote:

Yeah that is what an LLM does and also pretty much how a human baby learns to talk,  What I meant by "intelligent" is more in the vein of "thinking".  Something that might pass the Turing Test:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

With all the angst that the various chat platforms are causing it seems clear that they are pretty close to passing.

Yeah, you are probably right.  But I do not consider the Turing test as a valid test.  I would want to see an intelligence INVENT something completely unique and useful.  Then it might be worth considering.  And that does not mean sorting thru all the available data to FIND something, it means CREATING something new.

Li can come and go at will of course, but, I read the bot comment as humor, maybe kinda wryly dark, but still not intended seriously. Also, there was a rollicking little thread going about then, based on truly ridiculous bot posts. The stuff you get to see if you are on MP at really off hours, before it gets pulled.*

Cherokee, yeah, nice story! And I'm glad it resonated for Lori. She is irredeemably and irretrievably a climber. 

Bots, and the mention of Turing? If one enjoys sci fi, I saw that Murderbot is going to be out soon. I don't get Apple tv, but I did read all the Martha Wells robot books. Should be good, if they do the story justice. Pretty hard to beat I, Robot, though. Such a classic.

AI is perhaps going to head us into some very ancient lines of thinking. What is intelligence? Consciousness? Sentience? Life?

And then.....

The ethics if all of the above coalesce.

H.

*Edit to add, too stupud to get the link in, but the bot thread was to do with joining the Illuminati, in the General forum.

Edit to add number two. Warning, politics.

Idaho's population has grown by 9 Afrikaners. They located them to Twin Falls. Absolutely NOTHING against the people, themselves, no idea what their story is, but, I do feel it's a huge slap in the face to all those who have been working their way through the glacially slow refugee program, to claim these people are refugees. Those people usually itake years to get here, and are better vetted than pretty much anyone else in the country. To just announce this, then BAM! they are walking off a plane, in Twin Falls Idaho, only a few weeks (less?) later? 

Uh, okey dokey. Mr President, you make it real real difficult to try and be objective about some of your decisions. 

Challenging someone on their views is one thing- there was certainly much about Li Hu's perspectives that were worthy of providing alternative views, and the claim of racism in his departing post was pretty far fetched to my eye. However, personally-directed comments about the wacky stuff he's been smoking, going back to play with his laptop, or bot accusations start leaning into ad hominems, and aren't especially conducive to productive dialogues. These kinds of comments were commonplace in ST political threads, and they were notoriously irritating to other ST users (and probably contributed, at least tangentially, to ST's demise).

I maintain that discussing politics is a reasonable subject matter in this thread, but it needs to be done in such a way that it focusses on issues, and avoids personal ad hominems. I've always found discussing politics with other climbers to be much more interesting than doing so with just about anyone else. Just gotta stay classy...

Edit: BTW…does anyone know anything about John Eleazarian? He was a regular in the ST political threads, and while we had differing ideologies, I was always impressed with the way he expressed his views.

Old Lady H: Your most recent posts - about your life and how it's flowed, were wonderful. Something about how you've grown to accept and understand (and find joy in) decisions you made young which, upon later reflection, might have been a bit crazy? Those may be the wrong words and I can't pinpoint what I liked about your posts, but yours is a wonderful story, well told.

I've long been a fan of Jackson Browne's music. Especially his earlier stuff. And your story made me think of a song he called "Ready or Not." The song is a story that seems like yours in several ways (told from a man's perspective since Jackson Browne is a man). I wonder if you've ever listened to it?

This problem at the gym is still out of my reach. Basically I don’t want it enough. Commitment issues. Progressed though which is good.

Now, do I go in The Distinguished Gentleman’s motorbike ride tomorrow, go back to the gym and send this fucking problem or do some sports climbing outside?

It’s autumn here, everything is red and yellow.

https://youtube.com/shorts/85hJJbn6-9Y?si=q3brx39ZTA0t3U23

Lori Milaswrote:

Hi Permabeta, 

I admittedly geek out on this stuff.  I have my own reasons... I didn't expect to be climbing at 71.  But I have had plenty of issues with recovery, fatigue, etc.  So, this has been a subject I care about... but I'm sure you know that most people aren't too interested, and probably don't need to be.  

I don't think it's as easy as "most Americans get plenty of protein...".  But it seems to be the norm that people casually say "just eat a balanced diet, you'll be fine."  What exactly is a balanced diet? Plant based, organic?   Virtually every diet out there has 'studies'... I like the Mediterranean studies the best.  But paleo, carnivore, keto... all have their advocates.  The healthiest person I know is a vegan.  But she's also young, and mostly sedentary.  

Mostly, I'm just looking around at my peers who are rapidly failing.  My mom got SO frail towards the end of her life.  Our dinner partners are all weak and have sarcopenia.  I had sarcopenia, and osteoporosis at the age of 55!  I didn't notice it until my doctor noticed it, and said "Lori... you're losing all your muscle mass!".  I was able to turn this completely around, including 'moderate osteoporosis' through change in diet, sunshine (the desert!) and climbing.  My doctor said that was ludicrous... couldn't be done without  bisphosphonates. My last 2 dexa scans proved him wrong. 

----

My current sources are:

Dr. Stacy Simms.  "Aim for 1.8 to 2.4 g of protein per kg of bodyweight per day spread throughout the day." , emphasizing leucine rich foods.  This is backed by dozens of studies in her footnotes, and several long chapters on the subject.  (Read her book Next Level)

My Registered Dietician who emphasizes .9 grams of protein per pound of body weight as 'the sweet spot' for me.  

Dr. Gabriel Lyon:  "I recommend that adults consume 30 to 50 grams of high-quality protein at each primary meal."  "Several studies on older adults have shown that older people can experience a 'restorative" effect on MPS from consuming at least 2.5 grams of leucine per meal.  That restorative level requires a minimum of 30 grams of high-quality protein at each meal."  (her book Forever Strong")   She simplifies this by suggesting 30-30-30 (gm per meal) and 20 in a snack.  (plus 30 gms of fiber, and 3 probiotic foods daily).  I like this one! 

I have enjoyed Arnold Schwarzenegger's daily emails more than I can say.  They are short, but well supported.  His team cranks out the meta-analyses on aging and protein... you can chase those links all day long.  Or just read their summaries.  Basically, he recommends 1g/lb protein. 

Erika posted this lengthy article several years ago-- pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/313….  

Resistance Training for Older Adults: Position Statement From the National Strength and Conditioning Association   Wade through it.  Not specifically about protein, but about how the aging process slowly reduces muscle mass, long before it is obvious, partially due to decline in natural HGH and anabolic hormones and how to counteract that, including with protein intake. 

Meta-analyses outlined in ConsumerLab articles. 

My list of studies/support goes on and on... but I finally concluded that "for me" 100-120 grams of protein/day is my sweet spot.  The day following a climbing session seems to be the most important to refuel to prevent my typical collapse.  On every climbing day I have learned to go hard on protein... I have 30 grams of protein for an early breakfast, and a protein shake on my drive to the crag.  I cannot seem to eat WHILE climbing, except to nibble.  But I try to hit that protein shake or have a loaded sandwich as soon as I get home.  Then, dinner, hopefully, heavy on protein.  

The more recent studies on Type 2 diabetes show that higher (not lower!) protein reverses sarcopenia in T2D.  

So, honestly... it's an experiment for me.  An n=1 experiment.  

Love to continue the conversation, but please let me know your nutrition background, and whatever sources you rely on.  Cheers!  

My undergrad degree is in biochemistry, and I‘m a physician with interest in longevity. My sources are mostly medical and nutrition journals, and the guidelines derived from them. But I‘ve also read several books on aging, like Outlive, The Longevity Bible, Lifespan, How Not To Age/Die, and The Blue Zones. While these were written by well pedigreed authors, by and large, they’re certainly less scientific than peer reviewed journals.

We’re mostly on the same page. I agree that exercise, including resistance training, is important as we age. Sarcopenia is bad, and adequate protein helps to stave it off.

We differ mainly on our impressions of how much protein, and from what sources is optimal. No long-lived human population eats a diet with macronutrient composition comparable to that advocated by contemporary pop diets, like keto, paleo, or carnivore. On the contrary, they’re all plant-based, moderate to high carbohydrate, with protein accounting 15% daily caloric intake, or less. This includes the modified Mediterranean diets consumed in Ikaria and Sardinia, for example.

IIRC, we’ve had this discussion before, in the “Bioavailable Proteins” thread. You may have even posted a good podcast/YouTube video (fwiw, my least favorite source of scientific information). I‘ll see if I can find it, but the guest, a protein/muscle “expert”, basically agreed with what I’m saying: no well designed study shows benefit eating more protein than 1.5-1.6 g/kg body weight daily. He emphasized how exercise, any exercise (not just resistance training) mitigates sarcopenia, through how one’s body recycles protein, adapting to even lower intake.

My primary concern is health sequelae from excessive protein consumption, particularly from animal sources - cardiovascular disease, gastrointestinal cancers, kidney stones, and gout, to name a few. While I‘m not advocating veganism, the current “bro science” of overemphasizing protein, while demonizing carbohydrates, tends to move people away from plant based diets. I don’t think the totality of nutrition research suggests this shift is healthful. And there’s animal research which shows protein restriction, especially key amino acids like methionine, prolongs life.

I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers, and acknowledge the science of nutrition is far from settled. And longevity research is even more muddy. Moreover, both areas are ripe for outside influence, with financial gain incentivizing creative interpretation of the “data”. All that said, I think the basics I’ve outlined are on pretty solid footing.

ETA. As much as it pains me to link a podcast video, I watched this one posted in the protein thread. It’s a pretty good overview of protein requirements and muscle biosynthesis.

My link

The one thing that has consistently demonstrated longevity benefits in every organism that has been studied is caloric restriction.   

Jan Mcwrote:

Yeah, you are probably right.  But I do not consider the Turing test as a valid test.  I would want to see an intelligence INVENT something completely unique and useful.  Then it might be worth considering.  And that does not mean sorting thru all the available data to FIND something, it means CREATING something new.

Machine learning is useful in certain contexts in my field (physics) where the ability to perform complex interpolation between data points can be valuable. It tends to fail miserably when extrapolating outside the training set. That's not surprising. Robust extrapolation doesn't necessarily require inventing something new but it does require an understanding of the underlying process's and ML doesn't have this.

Old lady Hwrote:

Edit to add number two. Warning, politics.

Idaho's population has grown by 9 Afrikaners. They located them to Twin Falls. Absolutely NOTHING against the people, themselves, no idea what their story is, but, I do feel it's a huge slap in the face to all those who have been working their way through the glacially slow refugee program, to claim these people are refugees. Those people usually itake years to get here, and are better vetted than pretty much anyone else in the country. To just announce this, then BAM! they are walking off a plane, in Twin Falls Idaho, only a few weeks (less?) later? 

Uh, okey dokey. Mr President, you make it real real difficult to try and be objective about some of your decisions. 

It's straight out racism. And particularly shameful given the different way our Afghan allies are being treated.

Emil Briggswrote:

It's straight out racism. And particularly shameful given the different way our Afghan allies are being treated.

Hundres of thousands of POC waiting in camps all around the world for a taste of freedom and then this happens...

MAGAs really have some explaining to do, I don't believe their claim of deep state and fake news can cut it this time.

Permabetawrote:

My undergrad degree is in biochemistry, and I‘m a physician with interest in longevity. My sources are mostly medical and nutrition journals, and the guidelines derived from them. But I‘ve also read several books on aging, like Outlive, The Longevity Bible, Lifespan, How Not To Age/Die, and The Blue Zones. While these were written by well pedigreed authors, by and large, they’re certainly less scientific than peer reviewed journals.

We’re mostly on the same page. I agree that exercise, including resistance training, is important as we age. Sarcopenia is bad, and adequate protein helps to stave it off.

We differ mainly on our impressions of how much protein, and from what sources is optimal. No long-lived human population eats a diet with macronutrient composition comparable to that advocated by contemporary pop diets, like keto, paleo, or carnivore. On the contrary, they’re all plant-based, moderate to high carbohydrate, with protein accounting 15% daily caloric intake, or less. This includes the modified Mediterranean diets consumed in Ikaria and Sardinia, for example.

IIRC, we’ve had this discussion before, in the “Bioavailable Proteins” thread. You may have even posted a good podcast/YouTube video (fwiw, my least favorite source of scientific information). I‘ll see if I can find it, but the guest, a protein/muscle “expert”, basically agreed with what I’m saying: no well designed study shows benefit eating more protein than 1.5-1.6 g/kg body weight daily. He emphasized how exercise, any exercise (not just resistance training) mitigates sarcopenia, through how one’s body recycles protein, adapting to even lower intake.

My primary concern is health sequelae from excessive protein consumption, particularly from animal sources - cardiovascular disease, gastrointestinal cancers, kidney stones, and gout, to name a few. While I‘m not advocating veganism, the current “bro science” of overemphasizing protein, while demonizing carbohydrates, tends to move people away from plant based diets. I don’t think the totality of nutrition research suggests this shift is healthful. And there’s animal research which shows protein restriction, especially key amino acids like methionine, prolongs life.

I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers, and acknowledge the science of nutrition is far from settled. And longevity research is even more muddy. Moreover, both areas are ripe for outside influence, with financial gain incentivizing creative interpretation of the “data”. All that said, I think the basics I’ve outlined are on pretty solid footing.

ETA. As much as it pains me to link a podcast video, I watched this one posted in the protein thread. It’s a pretty good overview of protein requirements and muscle biosynthesis.

My link

Thanks for your reply. I will certainly listen to the podcast. I just happened to listen to the most recent Huberman podcast this morning, which spent the first hour talking about the difficulty of running studies – – all the variables and biases, the money.  I spent a couple of years at Long Beach State majoring in dietetics/nutrition, which was heavy in the sciences, especially chemistry, but I realized it wasn’t ever going to give me the tools to talk about health.

So I think really my quest is born of frustration. “Studies” on young male athletes don’t have much to do with me.  What I appreciate about Dr. Stacy Simms is her pointing out that almost all the exercise and dietary research has been done on men and that “women are not small men”.  So we have different nutritional needs, hormone profiles, etc..

But then I would add that negligible studies have been done on seniors. I just happened to notice that there seems to be this cut off at age 65 where suddenly pharmaceutical guidelines change (Kaiser arbitrarily reduced my thyroid medication on that birthday until I pitched a fit) and dietary requirements change due to anabolic resistance of age. Some scientists out there think they have a formula for this (the much higher recommended protein). 

Being diabetic, having celiac, choosing to be on hormone therapy – – on top of being an older female, and on top of having an unusually high amount of exercise – – these are way too many variables to ever find a study.  We are on our own figuring out what works.

But I do look around and notice with increasing alarm that the standard American diet doesn’t work.  And just doing some personal noticing – – the frailty and the muscle wasting that seems to be the natural decline of years happens at exactly the same time when I don’t want to exercise hard and I really have little appetite. Certainly not the appetite to eat one gram of protein per pound of body weight.  I’m also not thirsty enough to drink even eight glasses of water a day. So maybe some of the decline we see in seniors is just a natural loss of hunger and thirst. We choose (or don’t choose) to override the loss of those signals.

I believe we were never intended to live this long. I believe if we WANT to live this long we probably need some conscious interventions like “lifting heavy shit“ and eating a heartier diet.  How much? What kind? No one knows.

Kind of a sidenote: my favorite Dr said something similar to me 30 years ago “Lori, nature gave you women a bum deal.  You weren’t expected to live much past 40 and your bodies stopped making hormones when you were finished having babies. After that your skin, hair, bones and heart all went to hell and you died.”  Well that was my experience as well from an early menopause and I struggled hormone-free for another 10 years, but finally realized that to function properly I needed some replacement hormones. I guess the point is that for many of us aging is a whole different animal – – it’s not “natural“ to be rock climbing, or to be still sexual or to have peak intellectual capacity at this age. Right now I treat everything as medicine, including food. 

PS… I sent a note off to my RD to ask where he got his studies on the .9 g per pound of protein as being the “sweet spot“.

Old lady Hwrote:

So. This was my weekend. A friend went to the er close to midnight Saturday. His elderly dad called me, so off I went to see what was up. Texting with the dad, by midday Sunday, it became clear dad was getting pretty muddled. 

So I go to the house. 

And dad gets a ride to the hospital too.

Father and son both. 

I totally lost track of what day it was, went to the hospital many many times, back and forth many many times, chasing the room shuffling, ferrying info between father and son and making sure providers were cross pollinating....

I'm tired, but hey, I sure got those steps in!

Anyway, the son is out, but dad is still being held, to see if cognitive function improves enough for informed consents, so they can plan things out for discharge.

The pertinence here, to this thread?

Lori's conversation about our appalling food in this country.

They check everything, when you go in the way these 2 did, and both have that appalling American fast food/processed food diet. 

It showed up in their bloodwork, even to the point of some deficiencies that have consequences. Nutrition, or lack of it, is tied to just about everything.

Yet, just try to eat good stuff. Things that should be easy.... aren't. It's food, ffs. In the U S of A. The only excuse for it is corporate greed, plain and simple. In my opinion, it's criminal culpability, but the power is too great, and we are too brainwashed, most Americans, to know any better. And expect cheap.

Some parts of this, we can pick and choose, where and what we buy cook eat. But it's not easy, even if you are trying. 

Bread/grains is a really tough one. Whole grains are a vital part of what we should be eating, every day. But there's just nothing remotely healthy on offer, if you know you're stuff and look at labels. 

Even my beloved artisan bakeries mostly use white flours, not whole grain, for the most part. At least it's not loaded with a bunch of other crap, to keep it cheap, and have long shelf life. 

Anyway, try to eat healthy (it can be THE best food ever!), stay active, stay badass. 

I think pure stubborn helps, too.

Helen

Carbohydrate is classified as non-essential. Regardless of whole or refined it becomes sugar. Sugar poisons the body. Optimal health is avoiding it.

Permabeta - thanks so much for your science-based rational info.

As you can see from some of the recent posts people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.

Question: As a lacto-ovo-pescatarian, would I be correct in saying that protein from dairy, eggs, and fish is animal protein? 

Played hooky yesterday. 

it's officially black fly season

I led one of our climbs @ Mt wishIcouldtellya and top belayed to stay above the bugs. 

Isa followed and then led it and I followed. 

its a mile and a half in the woods and not on MP so if you happen to find it

Then I led the other climb

The view from the top is pretty gud. You can see the white mtns of NH. 

Dinner

My diet kryptonite.  I may die young, but I’ll die happy…honestly though I am otherwise pretty careful about diet.

These are pretty good articles on carbohydrate/glucose metabolism and the brain; both are open access. The second one is > 10 years old, but regarding this topic, it's doubtful mammalian physiology has changed, so. 

Wang Y, Zhou L, Wang N, Qiu B, Yao D, Yu J, et al. Comprehensive characterization of metabolic consumption and production by the human brain. Neuron. 2025 Mar 24:S0896-6273(25)00175-8. doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2025.03.003. Online ahead of print.

Mergenthaler P, Lindauer U, Dienel GA, Meisel A. Sugar for the brain: the role of glucose in physiological and pathological brain function. Trends Neurosci. 2013;36(10):587-597. Htps://doi: 10.1016/j.tins.2013.07.001. Epub 2013 Aug 20. 

I have to push back on the idea that keto or paleo is some new fringe diet.  Humans evolved for millions of years on this kind of diet.  Before the invention of agriculture maybe 10,000 years ago, no human ate bread, pasta, or any grains. They ate meat, fish, and whatever plants and fruits they could find.  They did absolutely not eat a high carbohydrate diet.  Keto or paleo may not be the optimal diet for human health (although it works for me), but it is sure as hell not “new”or “fringe.”