A Concerning Pattern: Z4 Cam Deformation After Falls

I've now had three BD Z4 cams deform after taking falls: most recently a .4 on Flakes of Wrath direct this weekend. After my partner and I (both 175lbs) took standard whippers with soft catches, the cam would retract but wouldn't fully open without assistance. Previously, I've had two .3 Z4s with lobes that needed manual manipulation to open.

BD warranted the first one but refused the second. Even Chris White (BD's Director of Quality) dismissed my concerns, saying "It did its job. It should be retired."

What worries me is the frequency, I've had the issue three times! I've never experienced this with other cams despite years of similar falls. The safety implications are significant: imagine your cam deforming on one pitch, then needing to rely on it for the next.

Has anyone else had Z4s deform after falls? Is this a known issue or somehow unique to my experience?

-Brandon

Fool you once, fool you twice, fool you THREE times? How about getting a different cam? Lots of folks complaining about the Z4s on here. 

I thought it was just an issue with the .3. I bought the .3 and .4 together and got the second .3 as a warranty. 

Z4s are disposable. I've seen more Z4s mangled by falls than any other model. Idk how BD managed to make such an unlovable cam

I’ve broken so many Z4’s in standard falls. Once even with the cam at my face. I’m a bigger dude (bout 200) but come on man. I feel safer falling on my old black alien in sandstone 

This was a well known issue going back at least to 0.4 X4s (maybe even c4s). The double-axel design requires a cutout in the cam lobe that leaves only a thin strip of material susceptible to deformation. 

Who would have ever thought that climbing gear may only good for one use, like it says in the instructions?

JaredG wrote:

This was a well known issue going back at least to 0.4 X4s (maybe even c4s). The double-axel design requires a cutout in the cam lobe that leaves only a thin strip of material susceptible to deformation. 

Since the MP thread about the failure (for this same reason) of a UL .4 C4, I’ve been using units that have small solid cams. For example, the gray DMM Dragonfly instead of the .3 C4, gray Alien instead of .4 C4, and the purple DMM Dragonfly instead of .4 C4. Metolius, WC, and Totem also make good cams in those sizes. 

I can understand the desire to gain at least a years worth of use out of a cam… but the tradeoffs have to be acknowledged here - sure, you can get a Z4 on sale or used at a slightly lower price point than a totem… but what, 10-15 bucks lower, max? 

The absolute adherence to shaving dollars when it comes to climbing gear can be a little bewildering to me, even considering how frugal I like to live. Spend a few extra bucks for better gear or accept that, in the long run, your monetary savings may not pay off the way you hoped.

I have 2 Z4s, both have not stood up well to falls. 

Meanwhile, literally every other brand in the same size has been fine. I don't get the hype with Z4s, they're substandard in my opinion

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

I have 2 Z4s, both have not stood up well to falls. 

Meanwhile, literally every other brand in the same size has been fine. I don't get the hype with Z4s, they're substandard in my opinion

What size are the cams?

I've also had a 0.3 and 0.4 deform on me. I believe BD warrantied both. I'll keep buying them if they will keep warranting them. But if they won't anymore, I'll probably switch to other cams.

Lovegasoline Love wrote:

What size are the cams?

0.0 and 0.2

So not terribly surprising to mash them up in a fall, but my DMM and WC microcams in the same sizes are fine after falling on them repeatedly

I expect cams to need some maintenance, but I judge them first on confidence to hold repeated standard falls (which is not an unreasonable ask for removable/reusable safety protection), second by how often they do require maintenance, and third by the nature of the failure. My old C4s had a cycle life of 8-12 yrs before re-slinging, ultralights around 4-5 years before reslinging and trigger wire repair, and Z4s thus far around 0 - 3 years for trigger wires or outright trashing. X4s seemed somewhere between ultralights and C4s. 

It's pretty tough to take trad gear into the backcountry or alpine if you don't have confidence it'll last the route, leaving you in a bind mid-route or mid-trip.

Jim Titt wrote:

Who would have ever thought that climbing gear may only good for one use, like it says in the instructions?

If we were talking about micronuts, brassies, RPs...that sort of thing - sure. It doesn't feel like a stretch to expect your cams to be good for more than a single use.

Are the .5 and .75 size Z4s also experiencing the fragility (cam deformation, trigger wires, or other) that seems to plaque the smaller sizes? 

I had my entire rack stolen and instead of replacing my older Camalot Jr. .5 and .75 (1990s dual stem design which I'd happily still lead with and trust my life with today without reservation) I got a .5 & .75 Z4 on the basis of weight and being smaller then their C4 counterparts. I've not used them however and if they're as potentially problematic as folks report I'll unload them and either go with the C4 versions or another cam design. 

For the smaller end my CCH Aliens (1990s black, blue, green, yellow, & also offsets) were also stolen and as is common with Aliens their softish aluminum cam lobes would show mild deformation ... but nothing to ever be concerned about and they were 100% reliable even after 25 years of use on trad and aid walls including plenty of falls: just very well designed and fabricated cams (and my experience was very good customer service, Dave Waggoner did a free repair on a broken Alien trigger bar).

I did also recently get a black & yellow Totem but again I've not used them yet, they do appear visually more fragile due to the wiring system. 

Newer doesn't mean better, I've never felt that I was in anyway held back or disadvantaged by having Aliens on my rack, to the contrary the yellow was my favorite cam and held several falls. Is the Z4 a step backwards? I couldn't care less about advice to retire a cam after a single fall or that they're disposable. My experience - and expectations drawn therefrom has been the complete opposite - cams should take falls in stride and if lubed should last many years/decades perhaps requiring replacement slings if the nylon/spectra is damaged, or the rare retirement if fatally damaged.

BD's customer service is very greatly diminished over the past 30 years to the point that I now give them a negative rating.  Last November I contacted them regarding an Awahwahee tent to buy a few replacement small 10¢ plastic pole retainer clips (potentially disposable part which they include extras of w/new tents) insofar as my repair kit was stolen (and I had a couple questions re: current gear stock/future availability inquiries): after many attempts to contact them (various email addresses and phone numbers) it took about 2 weeks for them to even acknowledge my inquiry (I was ready to give up on being able to ever contact them) and their disappointing reply was basically "sorry we can't help you, you're on your own with our expensive tent," (gah!) and "sorry we have no idea when xxx gear will be available" In the past they'd have mailed out a pack of clips in a couple days free, happily. They used to be one of my favorite companies but I'm now wary of having to rely on them for anything, no matter how minor.

AFAIK the problem with the thin lobes bending inward is confined to BD 0.3 and 0.4s.  The larger Z4s have their own problem though - fragile trigger wires.

It looks like documented lobe failures of the UL 0.4, and 0.3,0.4 z4s on MP. Are we just seeing a sampling bias because BD basically owns the US market? DMM makes double axel 0.3,0.4 sizes and WC makes a double axel 0.4. Are those having lobe failures in other parts of the world? I love my Z4s in the 0.3-0.5 range but my lizard brain still equates heavier cams (pre-2019 C4s and Dragons) with safety.

Z4 Thread drift:

I've read about Z4 trigger wire failures. For ex.: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/124612062/z4-wires-trash-garbage

Oh dear(!) I see I also have a .03 Z4, which I forgot about. I have 4 Z4s. The triggers wires do look super thin, thinner than on any other cam I've ever owned. The idea that the wires are pinned at the trigger bar - and not easily replaced by the user -  is a further demerit. Having to baby trad rock gear and either discard it (designed to be disposable) or routinely send it across country and pay for a repair isn't a utilitarian design. And as I stated upthread, BD's customer service is now unreliable: even at the very lowest level of trying to contact anyone at the company (based on my 30+ year relationship with BD). They used to have great customer service but those days are gone. I need unreliably fragile cams that require a dependency on an unrepsonsive BD to routinely fix them ... like I a need a shotgun blast to the face.

Are the triggers design and materials the same on all Z4 cams in the product line? Is the failure at the swage? I've never placed a Z4 so I have no idea regarding the flexibility, ease and fit of placements, etc. There's no place on my rack for fragile gear. In my experience trigger wires on cams do wear out, fray, or break but it occurs rarely and typically after they've been used a good loooong time. I've never owned a cam with the expectation that the trigger will fail and/or wear out frequently or easily in typical use (rack tossed in pack, rack thrown on ground, cams crushed between harness and rock, falls taken which torque the cam, and the second yanking on or fishing out the cam with a tool. That's the lifestyle cams endure and they typically last for years until a wire frays or breaks. 

I was trying to save a few grams + narrower width by adopting the .5 and .75 Z4's ,but if they're that fragile I'll look elsewhere. 

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Sorry for the trigger drift, back to the lobe defomation problems ...

Gunkiemike wrote:

AFAIK the problem with the thin lobes bending inward is confined to BD 0.3 and 0.4s.  The larger Z4s have their own problem though - fragile trigger wires.

Is it their own problem (only larger Z4s) or a problem shared by all sizes?

I've broken 9 Z4s (2 0.3, 5 .4s, 2 .5s) (plus a .4 X4) from the lobes bending all from very normal usage. One even from just a TR fall when used as a directional.

I've been too lazy to warranty them but hearing people's success is motivation to dig them out and go do it.