New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #35

"I can deal with the goofy economic policies and international relations. After all, Trump won the election, and that is what the public voted for. It was no secret what he stood for and he delivered. Now we get to enjoy the consequences. However, it pains and frightens me that at least half the electorate supports or is at the very least apathetic to the erosion of very basic civil liberties afforded by the Constitution."

This. 100%.

This is an excerpt of an email I just received:

About as clear an example of where politics and the central interest we all share intersect.

Soooo much 'winning'.

Frank Stein wrote:

I can deal with the goofy economic policies and international relations. After all, Trump won the election, and that is what the public voted for. It was no secret what he stood for and he delivered. Now we get to enjoy the consequences. However, it pains and frightens me that at least half the electorate supports or is at the very least apathetic to the erosion of very basic civil liberties afforded by the Constitution.

I suspect the reason they support, or are apathetic, to erosion of civil liberties is because they think it will only apply to "others" and not to them. 

apogee wrote:

This is an excerpt of an email I just received:

About as clear an example of where politics and the central interest we all share intersect.

Soooo much 'winning'.

Yup. Existing pre-tariff inventories are rapidly being depleted and people will soon start feeling the impact in lots of ways.

I really think we need to fix this. But as apogee pointed out, 'politics' bleeds into everything these days. Just my vote, but I think we need a separate thread for over 50's.  I'm not interested in talking world events with 20-somethings.  But what are the 'rules'?  

As I think about this, an upside of taking the conversation about politics elsewhere would be we could return to talking about climbing... and tomatoes, if Jan would only chime in.  I'm still 100% focused on climbing, getting strong enough to climb, and all aspects of aging.  I haven't harangued this group about diet/nutrition in awhile.    And we are seeing fewer and fewer pictures and discussions about climbing.  

Could we put our collective heads together and come up with a plan?  

Frank Stein wrote:

...I commissioned into the Army Reserve out of college and spent the next seven years teaching special education at a low income school. On the eve of the invasion of Iraq, when one of our company commanders was relieved of duty, I volunteered to assume command and take that company to war.  Not because I agreed with the premise of the war, but because I felt duty-bound to serve the country, the Army and my fellow soldiers. I also knew that I was good at what I did and that I would give my troops a good chance of returning home intact, which they did despite having the highest operational tempo in our group. Once my term of command was over, I went to law school and spent next three years prosecuting violent felonies. I am a firm believer in the rule of law, due process and service to the country and the community.

Frank, thanks for sharing more about who you are as a person.

The paragraph I left in quotes above made me think immediately of Karl Marlantes, a Vietnam vet who was featured in the superb Ken Burns series Vietnam. The parallels between the two of you really struck me. Have you heard of him? He has a quote in that series that explains that he left Oxford because of the same sense of duty that you described. Another of his (very calm) comments there just drops your jaw - it's to the effect that humans have a certain innate savagery that military training is designed to bring out. But he is much more articulate than I am.

I copy/pasted a bit about him below (and by the way, I agree wholeheartedly with the part of your comment that apogee quoted above, thanks for that too):

"He [Marlantes] won a National Merit Scholarship and attended Yale University, where he was a member of Jonathan Edwards College and Beta Theta Pi, and played as wing forward in the rugby team. During his time at Yale, Marlantes trained in the Marine Corps Platoon Leaders Class. He was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship at University College, Oxford. He returned to Oxford after his military service and earned a master's degree.

Marlantes left after one semester at Oxford to join active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps as an infantry officer. He served during the Vietnam War with 1st Battalion, 4th Marines from October 1968 to October 1969, and was awarded the Navy Cross for action in Vietnam in which he led an assault on a hilltop bunker complex...."

Brad Young wrote:

Frank, thanks for sharing more about who you are as a person.

The paragraph I left in quotes above made me think immediately of Karl Marlantes, a Vietnam vet who was featured in the superb Ken Burns series Vietnam. The parallels between the two of you really struck me. Have you heard of him? He has a quote in that series that explains that he left Oxford because of the same sense of duty that you described. Another of his (very calm) comments there just drops your jaw - it's to the effect that humans have a certain innate savagery that military training is designed to bring out. But he is much more articulate than I am.

I copy/pasted a bit about him below (and by the way, I agree wholeheartedly with the part of your comment that apogee quoted above, thanks for that too):

"He [Marlantes] won a National Merit Scholarship and attended Yale University, where he was a member of Jonathan Edwards College and Beta Theta Pi, and played as wing forward in the rugby team. During his time at Yale, Marlantes trained in the Marine Corps Platoon Leaders Class. He was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship at University College, Oxford. He returned to Oxford after his military service and earned a master's degree.

Marlantes left after one semester at Oxford to join active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps as an infantry officer. He served during the Vietnam War with 1st Battalion, 4th Marines from October 1968 to October 1969, and was awarded the Navy Cross for action in Vietnam in which he led an assault on a hilltop bunker complex...."

I know of Marlantes and he is a national treasure in my opinion. Thanks for sharing this. 

bryans wrote:

I'm 49.5. First post here after lurking on this thread for years. Yes, crawl back in your foxhole and nurture your grievances. I'd explain why, but experience - and reading a few books back in 2016 about con artists of decades past - has made me painfully aware that Trump supporters (like any victims of con artists) will go to their graves supporting Trump "even if he shot someone on 5th Avenue." 

(Edit to add: I appreciate my post is pages late and adds nothing of concrete value, but I do think it's appropriate to register dissent. I'm also not going to defend the Democratic party, as it is deeply flawed and I really do understand why a person would flirt with voting for Trump the same way they might flirt with the idea of cheating on their spouse - it's transgressive and exciting to be bad! - but a mature rational person moves on from that idea)

Welcome, but geez, telling someone to crawl back in their hole, for your first post? And, RKM, of all people? He is truly a friend of mine, and has befriended far too many climbers to even begin to count. If you climb at COR, sooner or later you'll meet him.

All that said?

Politics, and by politics I.mean kinda everything that seems to get people all fired up and jumping onto Us and Them bandwagons, is....just sucked, lately. I still hope to live long enough to see statesmanship return, at the very least.

But hey, I also grew up belaying with an ATC, and have been a grigri denier in the past, so there's that 

On to important stuff. I expect to be over at COR approximately June 3-13, start and end not set in stone exactly. As always, really looking forward to seeing whoever is around, and willing to say howdy!

Dirt shoving awaits. Them tomaters can be planted soonish!

Helen 

Okay, start a separate thread if you wish ....but just understand that limiting what we bring up in these threads will likely help kill the campfire entirely. Just my opinion, of course. But, for starters? That "politics" thread would get parked in the MP shed way out in the back forty. Not visible, without logging in. You will also perhaps lose the thread, as those in that subdivision just get deleted entirely now and then. That's where threads get exiled to hopefully die, and be seen as little as possible in the meantime.

I'd like to remind my friend Jaren Watson (yes friend, whether you like it or not, lol), that this is a text exchange on here. And, text always comes off harsher then intended. Even to the point of, uh, sometimes an apology might be needed for how we say something, even without retracting or apologizing for what was said, eh?

Please hear the smile in my text. Hope all is well with you and yours! 

Everyone else, kinda the same thing. I've met a fair number of MPers by now, in person. And interacted in the forums with hundreds. Been "lurked" by god only knows how many. Had some pretty lively conversations on here over the years, too. 

Without fail? I've not had any one that I've felt compelled to block. I have only rarely flagged people, and those have been truly egregious. No one on this thread has said a poster should put a gun in their mouth and pull the trigger. Yes, that happened, and I (others too, likely) flagged that asap, hoping the person it was pointed at wouldn't see it.

In person?

No real jerks, at least so.far. And, people are only annoying in their own particular ways, as am I. I don't have to live with any of you, after all.

So, see, even if you truly are a jerk?

That's fine by me. It makes the world more interesting, and, a lot of the time the jerks grow out of it, or it just doesn't matter.

Besides, even a jerk might be capable of being a solid climbing partner. Or a good camp cook. Or simply be having a really hard time, or whatever, but still capable of that climbing thing we all care about.

Just watch them with that grigri!

Helen

Rest day with Paula at the Grand Canyon.  I never get tired of this place.  Just did a few miles of the rim trail.

Speaking of politics...

I saw this yesterday in the parking lot at the Albertson's market here in Gillette. It's a mint 1970 Chevy. The owner kind of reminded me of Willie Nelson. 

Up here in Wyoming some of us are a little behind the times...

Li Hu wrote:

Finally got this one off fist climb clean. 40 feet of hand thrashing madness. Narrow fist or wide hand to find the narrow portion just barely into the crack, wide hands and fist. It’s rated 5.9+ but feels about a letter grade harder than Fisticuffs in Joshua Tree which I had sent recently.

Next on my list is the overhanging hand and finger crack. There’s another 5.11- that looks doable, but I’ll need thinner shoes to get the toe in just enough to keep me from swinging.

I apologize for being pedantic, but this is like using the term "crimp" for something that is a "jug".  "Off-fist" means larger than secure fists, not smaller.

Congrats on getting it clean! 

Cheers, 

GO

Frank Stein wrote:

I know of Marlantes and he is a national treasure in my opinion. Thanks for sharing this. 

Marlantes also wrote Matterhorn,  one of the very best books on the Vietnam war, plus several other amazing books.

https://www.amazon.com/Matterhorn-Novel-Vietnam-Karl-Marlantes-ebook/dp/B003V8BRTQ?ref_=ast_author_mpb

Regarding politics in the thread, I have a more nuanced opinion than keep it in or keep it out. If it were up to me it would be limited to what we are doing.  I like the fact that we keep up with things that are important in each other's lives, to the degree that each of us feel like sharing. So I have posted when i have attended political marches. To me, yes, this feels like an inflection point, and i feel compelled to act. 

If it was not something i was doing, if it was just my opinion i wanted to share, well, you all know the old saying about opinions (everyone has one, but...)  

So yeah, i like hearing about what y'all are up to, more so than just your opinion of the current shit show. 

That said, i also try to give everyone here a certain amount of grace. To my mind this thread is chock full of the good, the bad, and the ugly, and i like it just fine. So if there are things i don't care for, i tend to skim over them. Unless they are about the really life and death issues, like crack climbing. ;)

GO

We have plenty of smart folks here that can change a conversation quickly, besides that,  no hard and fast rules (besides being over 50) is what makes conversation flow. 

Now I see who got nasty, go figure they aren't 50! 

J W wrote:

It is a curious thing to observe the ostensibly mature demographic of the forum so enthusiastically engaging in pettiness, close-minded tribalism, and dogmatic certainty.

For as long as this thread has been going, I’ve looked forward to joining the ranks as a legitimate 50+ member, rather than a silent 40-something observer. Regrettably, I no longer look forward to wading into what has for nearly a year been a cesspool of mean-spirited foolishness.

You once enjoyed the robust fellowship and open exchange of experienced folks whose connecting bonds were knit by a shared love of our great pastime. In their place, you’ve allowed rancor and vitriol to take root, and despite the attempts of the august legends here to gently course correct, by and large, a handful of malcontents have taken over to trot out daily another fresh grievance, no matter how trivial.

Calling for folks to leave the group because your views don’t perfectly align? Such childishness is unbecoming. You can play nicely even if you disagree. Each of you would scold an adolescent for behaving the way many of you are here.

I expressed similar sentiments last week, which fell on deaf ears.  You seem like someone who would have some good things to contribute. Maybe things will improve and you will change your mind.  For me, it's too late. The latest round of nastiness about politics last week really crossed a line for me.  I've decided this thread has become too toxic. I can't see the point of continuing to contribute.  Luckily, many of the folks who post here are partners and friends IRL, so I'll continue to connect with them there...

M M wrote:

We have plenty of smart folks here that can change a conversation quickly, besides that,  no hard and fast rules (besides being over 50) is what makes conversation flow. 

Now I see who got nasty, go figure they aren't 50! 

This. Under 50 NPC lurker wants to be hero of over 50 thread. Maybe just stay away if it bothers you so much.

skinned the closed ski area easter Sunday. It was festive

we did it again today and were mostly by ourselves

1. 
   
   Actually on a climbing trip!!!! Feeling my age but still nice to be out with friends, and, so far, okay weather---if anything too hot, too soon!!!! We are at one of the many high quality but little known areas in the south ( pretty much everyone goes to the Red or the New---but many other worthwhile areas are relatively little visited---fine with me). This area is called Breaks Interstate Park on the SW VA/KY border/--Tim S. climbed here last year. I'll try to add some photos, but knowing my tech incompetence, not optimistic.

Before I do that, though. I think the thread is fine the way it is ( most of the time), including the politics---they are very much part of our lives for those both over and under 50, and does impact our climbing and ability to climb. Yes, some recent nastiness---these are very difficult and challenging times for many of us, but we will ( have already) move on, as we always have.

And, Phylp please don't leave!!! You add so much of value and interest.

  m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uf2b…