The issue described by Guy is not as rare as you would think.
I once took a self rescue class. Learned a few tricks, but one thing that stuck with me was the section on dealing with an injured party hanging on the rope below you. The instructor had each student use whatever belay device each they usually used, in whatever configuration they normally belayed from above. Several of the participants used some variation on an ATC guide in "guide mode". Everyone was paired up with a variety of other participants. When it came time for smaller people to lower a larger "unconscious" climber, they were typically unable to control the belay. It was very difficult to "break" the fully locked up device in guide mode with the weight of a heavy climber on it. In order to do so they had to rig up a sling and stand on it in order to get the power and leverage they needed. And then what typically happened was an uncontrolled descent. These belayers had to practice until they could be somewhat safe, but at least one of them never got there, and all of them had second thoughts about using the guide mode when belaying a heavier climber in the future.
GO
At least those people practiced! I think there is a sizable cohort using those devices who have never practiced lowering with a guide plaquette. Possibly worse, if their practice was with a relatively light second walking down a slab, then they aren't prepared for what happens when a heavier person is fully dangling. One goof in a lowering situation and you've probably lost control, and it happens in an instant.
Fortunately, lowering a second who can't assist isn't something one has to do very often, otherwise we'd be hearing of lots more incidents. If anyone wants a refresher for themselves or to share, this video illustrates most of the lowering methods. JB is a bit on the chatty side for my taste, but his advice seems spot-on to me, and I find the instructions easy to understand and follow.
Frankly, the amount of faff required to safely lower someone is hilarious, and I think all by itself would have disqualified these devices BITD. But these are different times, and the guide plaquette has become so ubiquitous that people are now scolding others for not using it.
Trump is going to push Congress to end funding for NPR/PBS. Much as I appreciate their journalism, in principle, this effort doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable. Having the federal govt funding any kind of media source is a fundamental conflict- and I sure as hell wouldn’t like to see this ‘balanced’ by seeing those federal funds support a media source that was as right leaning as NPR/PBS is left leaning.
If I recall, part of the original rationale for funding of NPR/PBS was to make information available to a swath of the country that couldn’t access it otherwise. Maybe I’m wrong on that, but at this point in time, information is available to anyone very easily (too bad so much of it is bad information), and NPR/PBS can surely find funding sources to keep themselves afloat like any other media source.
Sorry to dive into politics, and I used to give NPR money, but in what alternative universe is the US government authorized to give money to a TV and radio station? Please read the 10th amendment, you know, the one that both parties conveniently ignore in order to violate the Constitution and push their agendas.
Rest day here, rain and snow. Im going to hit the boulder in the morning and then pick Paula and Ella and her friend up in Phoenix later in the day.
Rgold wrote: “Frankly, the amount of faff required to safely lower someone is hilarious, and I think all by itself would have disqualified these devices BITD. But these are different times, and the guide plaquette has become so ubiquitous that people are now scolding others for not using it.”
I concur. Here’s a photo from the Appendix of the new edition of Rock Climbing: The AMGA Single Pitch Manual that I’m working on with the AMGA. Note the autoblock backup. This is what keeps you from dropping someone!
When guiding, I’ve always carried a Grigri with me for direct belays. To me it’s worth the extra weight. Reduces wear and tear on the shoulders and joints, since the rope is so easy to pull through it when belaying, compared to an ATC Guide or Reverso in guide mode. Also, super duper easy to lower someone (just redirect the brake strand) plus I can set up a 3 to 1 hauling system in about 15 seconds to rarely pull someone past a crux if they can’t climb It.
A newer innovation, called the LSD or load strand direct method, is a bit simpler, but you still want an autoblock backup!
Sorry to dive into politics, and I used to give NPR money, but in what alternative universe is the US government authorized to give money to a TV and radio station? Please read the 10th amendment, you know, the one that both parties conveniently ignore in order to violate the Constitution and push their agendas.
Rest day here, rain and snow. Im going to hit the boulder in the morning and then pick Paula and Ella and her friend up in Phoenix later in the day.
Hey Ward! Set up the shoe-cam so we can see some of the action. Sincerely hope you send this. Don't let go! (How much longer are you in Arizona?)
I visited my route/rock again today. It's interesting how some things grab hold. I don't want to waste an outing if I'm not ready for it. But maybe I AM ready for it. Only one way to find out...
I have missed having a garden so much that I finally pulled my Farmstand out of storage and fired it up again. But I saw this garden-type structure here in Josh, and I'm wondering how hard it would be to erect one. I miss bringing in armfulls of produce, grabbing a kid and spending the day canning together.
I don’t recognize the climb, but climbing with that rack in the Gunks looks bad ass!
Personally, even with a double rack I have found the unpredictability of finding placements and encountering cruxes to be a major mental challenge on a new-to-me route in the Gunks. Ten nuts is not enough mental armor for me.
Lots of guide mode discussion. Rgold mentioned the DNM Pivot and that gadget has been a game changer for me. I would almost say it is in a separate class from the typical plaquette devices. I recently lowered a guy quickly, easily, and very controllably roughly 20 meters down a fairly steep slab. He was on a 8.5mm Beal Opera. Instead of a third hand or prussik, I had the guy with me at the belay keep an extra hand on the rope just in case, but it was super easy to do and I never felt the awful on/off sensation I have experienced with the standard ATC. I’m pretty sold on the Pivot… but have also used the Grigri and it is a pleasure to use as well. It all depends…
(I just looked at the short Pivot video on the DMM Wales website and it does not show them using a back up while lowering—that I could see, anyway. I also seem to recall reading the instructions that came with it and not finding a mention of a back up for lowering. Maybe someone here still has their instruction book and could check? I agree some kind of back up is definitely best practice but I wonder if it might be a holdover from the scary On/Off experiences folks have had on standard plaquettes?) YMMV considerably.
I am taking a rest day and drinking tequila. I have maybe four more climbing days with rest days in between before I leave a week from tomorrow. Lots of friends have suggested that I video my send attempts, but I find it a distraction. You will just have to take me at my word. Right now the odds are no better than 50 - 50. This thing is not hard by modern standards but V8 or 9 which is plenty hard for an old guy.
I am taking a rest day and drinking tequila. I have maybe four more climbing days with rest days in between before I leave a week from tomorrow. Lots of friends have suggested that I video my send attempts, but I find it a distraction. You will just have to take me at my word. Right now the odds are no better than 50 - 50. This thing is not hard by modern standards but V8 or 9 which is plenty hard for an old guy.
You're an inspiration, Ward. Just do your best, you'll be happy with that. Have fun on it.
BTW... my one great contribution to the climbing community is the 'shoe-cam'... take one of your shoes, stick your phone in it, turn on video, and forget it. Most of my pictures and videos are shoe-cams. No fuss, no muss.
rgold: "I didn't really start to learn about rock-climbing until I got to college at the University of Chicago. I quickly found a few enthusiasts with about the same experience as me, and we went about learning together, climbing at Devil's Lake, WI and also making Western trips each summer. The result was that we were mostly self-taught. With another undergraduate, Steve Derenzo, I started the University of Chicago Mountaineering Club, which grew to well over 100 members during our time at the college. I nearly crossed paths with John Gill, who had been a grad student in the Dept. of Meteorology but had graduated and left for a stint as a forecaster for the Air Force a year or two before I got to U of C. "
Rich, I arrived at the university October of 1958 and departed August 1959. When I inquired about a climbing group, I was directed to Michael Fain, who was a student assistant in the fluid dynamics department. At the time there was a U of Chi Mountaineering Club run by Michael. It was small and its main purpose was to organize weekends at Devils Lake in good weather. Michael left the university shortly after I departed to GlasgowAFB, so the club must have evaporated. Do you remember Mihaly, a grad student in psychology? He became the world authority on flow, and I suspect those trips had a little to do with his specialty. There was also a young woman who was a ballerina.
Helmut Rohrl was a visiting prof and I climbed and bouldered a bit with him. He once described Buhl bouldering outside Munich and doing a traverse on which his handholds were "thin as matchsticks". He also claimed Buhl could do a one finger pull-up, so, of course, I had to learn one. We went to a park on the lakeshore and climbed around on a stone hut, but mostly I spent my time in the gym playing at gymnastics.
I am taking a rest day and drinking tequila. I have maybe four more climbing days with rest days in between before I leave a week from tomorrow. Lots of friends have suggested that I video my send attempts, but I find it a distraction. You will just have to take me at my word. Right now the odds are no better than 50 - 50. This thing is not hard by modern standards but V8 or 9 which is plenty hard for an old guy.
Edit: good choice for a rest day!
Looks like Tuesday morning here in VT.
“Lots of friends have suggested that I video my send attempts, but I find it a distraction.”
Maybe seeing a video of of a good attempt that didn’t completely succeed, you can find the small part that’s keeping you from closing the deal…
Might help…
Just a thought…
ed “who’s the whippersnapper that thinks he’s an ‘old guy???’l e
rgold
·
Apr 18, 2025
·
Poughkeepsie, NY
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 526
rgold: "I didn't really start to learn about rock-climbing until I got to college at the University of Chicago. I quickly found a few enthusiasts with about the same experience as me, and we went about learning together, climbing at Devil's Lake, WI and also making Western trips each summer. The result was that we were mostly self-taught. With another undergraduate, Steve Derenzo, I started the University of Chicago Mountaineering Club, which grew to well over 100 members during our time at the college. I nearly crossed paths with John Gill, who had been a grad student in the Dept. of Meteorology but had graduated and left for a stint as a forecaster for the Air Force a year or two before I got to U of C. "
Rich, I arrived at the university October of 1958 and departed August 1959. When I inquired about a climbing group, I was directed to Michael Fain, who was a student assistant in the fluid dynamics department. At the time there was a U of Chi Mountaineering Club run by Michael. It was small and its main purpose was to organize weekends at Devils Lake in good weather. Michael left the university shortly after I departed to GlasgowAFB, so the club must have evaporated. Do you remember Mihaly, a grad student in psychology? He became the world authority on flow, and I suspect those trips had a little to do with his specialty. There was also a young woman who was a ballerina.
Helmut Rohrl was a visiting prof and I climbed and bouldered a bit with him. He once described Buhl bouldering outside Munich and doing a traverse on which his handholds were "thin as matchsticks". He also claimed Buhl could do a one finger pull-up, so, of course, I had to learn one. We went to a park on the lakeshore and climbed around on a stone hut, but mostly I spent my time in the gym playing at gymnastics.
John, I arrived in Fall of 1961, so missed you by two years. Helmet Rohl, Mike Fain, and Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi were either gone by the time I arrived or had lost interest in climbing. There was no climbing club left either; Steve Derenzo and I started from scratch. We too did weekends at Devil's Lake, but also held slide shows, afternoon excursions to masonry climbing walls about town, and ran summer trips. We published a newsletter called Flail and Scrabble; sadly I have no copies to look back at. Steve and I invested in a mimeograph postcard printer and used it to send out notices of all our activities. I think this was why the club got so big.
The one holdover from your days was, I think, Peter Gardiner, who remained active during all of my time there, and knew all the aforementioned folks. And we had Bob Williams (RIP) who you subsequently met on one of our Colorado trips. I was in touch with Peter and Mike Fain on and off for many years. Peter disappeared very suddenly; I've never been able to find out what happened to him, and Mike and I just lost touch. I never met Mike in person; he was an email correspondent. He's been a long-time member of the Aspen Center for Physics and has had a distinguished career as a photographer. https://aspenphys.org/people/michael-fain/. Peter was a mathematician turned programmer turned financial analyst. Bob was a friend for many years, and I visited him periodically once he and his wife moved from Austin to Princeton. I still feel terribly sad that I didn't know he was sick and was not around when he died.
John, I arrived in Fall of 1961, so missed you by two years. Helmet Rohl, Mike Fain, and Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi were either gone by the time I arrived or had lost interest in climbing. There was no climbing club left either; Steve Derenzo and I started from scratch. We too did weekends at Devil's Lake, but also held slide shows, afternoon excursions to masonry climbing walls about town, and ran summer trips. We published a newsletter called Flail and Scrabble; sadly I have no copies to look back at. Steve and I invested in a mimeograph postcard printer and used it to send out notices of all our activities. I think this was why the club got so big.
The one holdover from your days was, I think, Peter Gardiner, who remained active during all of my time there, and knew all the aforementioned folks. And we had Bob Williams (RIP) who you subsequently met on one of our Colorado trips. I was in touch with Peter and Mike Fain on and off for many years. Peter disappeared very suddenly; I've never been able to find out what happened to him, and Mike and I just lost touch. I never met Mike in person; he was an email correspondent. He's been a long-time member of the Aspen Center for Physics and has had a distinguished career as a photographer. https://aspenphys.org/people/michael-fain/. Peter was a mathematician turned programmer turned financial analyst. Bob was a friend for many years, and I visited him periodically once he and his wife moved from Austin to Princeton. I still feel terribly sad that I didn't know he was sick and was not around when he died.
I confess I had to look that up to see 1) who he was and 2) how to pronounce his name. My (now deceased) mother-in-law was Hungarian and maintained it was a ridiculously hard language to pronounce. I tend to agree !
rgold
·
Apr 19, 2025
·
Poughkeepsie, NY
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 526
I confess I had to look that up to see 1) who he was and 2) how to pronounce his name. My (now deceased) mother-in-law was Hungarian and maintained it was a ridiculously hard language to pronounce. I tend to agree !
Dunno if we ever got his last name right, but we said something like Checks-Int-Mee-Holly.
Rgold wrote: “Frankly, the amount of faff required to safely lower someone is hilarious, and I think all by itself would have disqualified these devices BITD. But these are different times, and the guide plaquette has become so ubiquitous that people are now scolding others for not using it.”
I concur. Here’s a photo from the Appendix of the new edition of Rock Climbing: The AMGA Single Pitch Manual that I’m working on with the AMGA. Note the autoblock backup. This is what keeps you from dropping someone!
When guiding, I’ve always carried a Grigri with me for direct belays. To me it’s worth the extra weight. Reduces wear and tear on the shoulders and joints, since the rope is so easy to pull through it when belaying, compared to an ATC Guide or Reverso in guide mode. Also, super duper easy to lower someone (just redirect the brake strand) plus I can set up a 3 to 1 hauling system in about 15 seconds to rarely pull someone past a crux if they can’t climb It.
A newer innovation, called the LSD or load strand direct method, is a bit simpler, but you still want an autoblock backup!
My biggest takeaway from my AMGA course was using a GriGri for belaying from the top. All the benefits that Bob G. points out. Yes, I also carry my DMM Pivot for rappels. The slight added weight is well worth the safety and ease of use benefits. We were also taught to always use a backup when lowering with a ATC or Pivot, regardless of the weight of the second.
This is awesome! You must be so proud. Just ... wow!
Also where's the rope on your Gohegans pic? Nice looking route! Was it part of a solo circuit?
GO
The route in the pic is Butterfly Crack on Trashcan Rock. I mentioned Gohegan 'cause he made the tights, a hobby of his. Its a good solo since the crux is the first few moves, after that it's cake.
The route Last of the Gohegans is up in Indian Country, a good hike uphill above Indian Cove passing the Corral Wall, Dodge City, and Upper Dodge City. Here's a shot of the late great Vern Stiefel on sighting it with Mike Morely at the belay.
AMGA, and that sucks getting dropped… too many “certified people” and they don’t “believe” experienced people know what they’re doing.
It’s the same with all activities and even careers.
Not to mention younger generation, older generation, children, parents, spouses, Those People from That State, men, women, cats, dogs, vacuum cleaners, plumbing, farm animals (including radicalized chickens), those damn tomato plants....
I'm still fiddling around with my GoPro and so far find it useless. Rgold was right. But still, maybe there could be some usefulness, if I could just get the settings right. Someone mentioned attaching it to a painter's pole.... but that would require holding the pole in one hand.
I remembered this video, done with a GoPro, by a guy named Michael Spitz. It's a bit shaky, but I felt like I learned a lot watching him crack climb close up.
Perhaps it could be useful for taking stills as needed.
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