New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #35

RKM is no more guilty than many of the rest of us regulars. 

Please stick around here, RKM. I’m sure we would agree in far more areas than we would disagree, and even where that’s the case, I’m interested to hear rationally-presented views.

Dragons- When I started climbing I asked the question to the people who “took me out” - Mark Powell, Bob Kamps, Joe Fitchen - why? Why spend time showing me, taking me, correcting me.
The answer from all three was something along the lines of: “That’s the way it is, it’s every climber’s responsibility to teach the sport to the new guys..”

And as Alan pointed out it is best to have as many experienced hands around as possible.

I would rather teach someone how it works than to trust someone’s word and credentials…. The only time I have ever been dropped to the ground was by a fellow who was a “single pitch USMGA guide.” (Or whatever they call themselves) he failed to “protect the second” and sure enough I popped off the crux and was left hanging in space about 20 feet off the deck. I needed to be lowered a few feet so I could get back on the stone…. The ATC Guide needed flipping over…. I decked. The day was over.

Later all 

Frank Stein wrote:

I hate to dive into this, but is RKM the same Kim Miller as the CEO of Scarpa USA and the climate change and natural resources advocate?  It would be super weird if so, and another nail in the coffin of my faith in humanity.

No. Same name, different people.

RKM wrote:

Not trying to offend, just stating my own opinions - like so many with the opposite view have posted above.  But . . . .  One can always visit the official government website DOGE.Gov and see daily updates on what they find - specifics in the fraud, waste and abuse.  Are you saying all of this is untrue - billions and billions of fraudulent dollars?  The website has a place and ASK for comments back from disbelievers, questioners, or those calling BS.  Not a lot of takers.  Have any of you written in with a disagreement?   

Of course some might call the whole government website a ‘cheap fake’ like the videos of Biden, or ‘disinformation‘.  One can decide for themselves.  And, according to the website (cheap fakes - disinformation), only .015% of government workers were let go or fired.  All the other federal workers took the generous buyout or moved on by their own free will and choice.

So thats where I’m getting my corroboration data  wake and bake (and I would never go near a wide crack - yikes).  And I just assume that by 1) winning the popular vote, 2) the electoral college, 3) all 7 previous held democrat swing states and 4) greater than half of each of the individual counties in the individual states either gained republican voters or completely switch to voting for the rapist and felon that is might be ’more than half’.

It’s all good, have an enjoyable life.

So where are the reports of fraud and waste at the DOD?  We know that is where most of it is but they are afraid to touch that kettle of filth.  Hence, they lose all respect.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Dragons- When I started climbing I asked the question to the people who “took me out” - Mark Powell, Bob Kamps, Joe Fitchen - why? Why spend time showing me, taking me, correcting me.
The answer from all three was something along the lines of: “That’s the way it is, it’s every climber’s responsibility to teach the sport to the new guys..”

And as Alan pointed out it is best to have as many experienced hands around as possible.

I would rather teach someone how it works than to trust someone’s word and credentials…. The only time I have ever been dropped to the ground was by a fellow who was a “single pitch USMGA guide.” (Or whatever they call themselves) he failed to “protect the second” and sure enough I popped off the crux and was left hanging in space about 20 feet off the deck. I needed to be lowered a few feet so I could get back on the stone…. The ATC Guide needed flipping over…. I decked. The day was over.

Later all 

Guy, too bad you had to learn from such a group of disreputable, inexperienced punters!!!!  When was that? Whenever it was, clearly Stoney Point was a happening place at the time. I love the 'passing the torch' quote--was so true for many generations of climbers. I wonder if it is still the case.

dragons wrote:

A stranger contacted me on another forum and suggested that I might climb with them to share my trad knowledge, such as it is. This person is probably genuine, seems new to trad climbing, and has a little bit of sport climbing experience.

What would you do? I've been climbing for many years, almost entirely with people at my level of experience, or well beyond it. Many total strangers took a risk and climbed with me when I contacted them out of the blue. Now I'm getting it from the other side - mostly wondering if this person might accidentally get me killed (they will be belaying). This is the first time I've been asked by someone with less experience to act in the mentor kind of role (probably "mentor" is an exaggerated description of what's being requested).

I can imagine lots of potential disaster scenarios. Anyone care to share advice, or horror stories?

The part of this that strikes me is this is a complete stranger; someone who contacted you on another forum.

This is not someone you met in the gym or otherwise. Absent some other shared connection and a compelling reason to essentially guide this individual, for me, it would be a polite no.

This is quite different than the offers to climb with or mentor which Guy or any of the rest of us experienced. (I presume Guy met these luminaries at Stoney Point - or even West Ridge Sports - where he demonstrated his enthusiasm.)

And, unlike in the past, there are an ample number of professional guides available for anyone who wants to learn or gain experience.

Another example of the hundreds of utter falsehoods of doge:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/elite-pentagon-unit-resigns-en-masse-after-clashing-with-doge/  

True efforts to remake the federal government ~30 years ago were large investigative and analytic combined efforts of outsiders and insiders.

1. BRAC -  Military ,   Base Realignment and Closure   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure

2. Reinventing government.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Partnership_for_Reinventing_Government
https://www.govexec.com/management/2013/04/what-reinvention-wrought/62836/

Got some better beta that allows me to transition from the low sit to the stand easier.  Did the V5 stand start with the new toe hook beta yesterday,  two regular pads and three inflatables.  My friend Quinny was out from Colorado cleaning and bolting an amazing 100 foot 5.8 route up at the cliff I had some support in the area if anything went wrong.  I will be hitting it all by myself tomorrow. 

Ward Smith wrote:

Got some better beta that allows me to transition from the low sit to the stand easier.  Did the V5 stand start with the new toe hook beta yesterday,  two regular pads and three inflatables.  My friend Quinny was out from Colorado cleaning and bolting an amazing 100 foot 5.8 route so up at the cliff I had some support in the area if anything went wrong.  I will be hitting it all by myself tomorrow. 

Congrats on finding (figuring?) out the improved beta!  Crush it! 

GO

I’m going to try a new low point tomorrow, a few of the crux moves into the stand start.  I need to not be afraid of the top.  It is pretty high, but I’ve been ruthlessly wiring it on gri gri top rope as part of my warm up and it wasn’t scary yesterday without the rope.

Very interesting working on this all by myself. Lots of sitting around, hiking, and staring into space .  I would prefer to be here with a partner, but I am running out of time to be able to climb new routes like this.  So here I am.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Guy, too bad you had to learn from such a group of disreputable, inexperienced punters!!!!  When was that? Whenever it was, clearly Stoney Point was a happening place at the time. I love the 'passing the torch' quote--was so true for many generations of climbers. I wonder if it is still the case.

After learning the basics and not dying in a summer camp called wilderness bound in the mid ‘70’s :

I simply started hanging out at the uberfall when I was 15-16 years old and fell in with many reputable and disreputable types , many who are still friends, who were happy to drag me around and make me part of the community.  I think that’s what’s missing these days.  If a stranger asks you to take him/her climbing, you have the chance to bring someone new into the community 

dragons wrote:

understand why every nation would want to keep some manufacturing expertise of specific, security-related goods within the country - chips, drones, etc. I don't see it as "suppressing another nation for being better." Can you specifically point to something that you thought was wrong about the CHIPS act? To be clear, I think the current tariffs are insanity and/or corruption.

Getting as many nations to gang up on China and restrict all chip making technologies when China buys 60% or more of the silicon for peaceful purposes.

Restricting EUV, DUV was next.

It’s horrible for trade, and thanks to Biden BRICS looked very attractive to any country that doesn’t wish to be under direct control of the USA.

It’s against all the principles we tout, and against free trade.

And, we just pissed them all off. 99.999% of the Chinese citizens are backing Xi and working towards making China great again. McGa just doesn’t have the same ring to it   

I don't think we should be trying to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US. I don't think China should be struggling to retain these jobs either. We should all be working together to automate all these manufacturing processes so that humans (of any country) are not forced to grind their lives away in factories, dying of horrible diseases in order to barely scrape by.

Honestly, probably not. Robotics is the future.

It’s possible that Trump is trying to move USA backwards into the 1870s? An entire country living off the land again. Good luck with those farms   

Ward Smith wrote:

Very interesting working on this all by myself. Lots of sitting around, hiking, and staring into space .  I would prefer to be here with a partner, but I am running out of time to be able to climb new routes like this.  So here I am.

Venmo the airfare, I’ll be there Friday night….

Nothing but strong…

Ed E

Guy Keesee wrote:

Dragons- When I started climbing I asked the question to the people who “took me out” - Mark Powell, Bob Kamps, Joe Fitchen - why? Why spend time showing me, taking me, correcting me.
The answer from all three was something along the lines of: “That’s the way it is, it’s every climber’s responsibility to teach the sport to the new guys..”

And as Alan pointed out it is best to have as many experienced hands around as possible.

I would rather teach someone how it works than to trust someone’s word and credentials…. The only time I have ever been dropped to the ground was by a fellow who was a “single pitch USMGA guide.” (Or whatever they call themselves) he failed to “protect the second” and sure enough I popped off the crux and was left hanging in space about 20 feet off the deck. I needed to be lowered a few feet so I could get back on the stone…. The ATC Guide needed flipping over…. I decked. The day was over.

Later all 

AMGA, and that sucks getting dropped… too many “certified people” and they don’t “believe” experienced people know what they’re doing.

It’s the same with all activities and even careers.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Guy, too bad you had to learn from such a group of disreputable, inexperienced punters!!!!  When was that? Whenever it was, clearly Stoney Point was a happening place at the time. I love the 'passing the torch' quote--was so true for many generations of climbers. I wonder if it is still the case.

Alan… on my first day at Perce College, 1973, I was in a beginning level geography class. ‘Geography of California”  
Mark Powell was written on the board. A slide show started and Mark was showing slides that aligned with the syllabus. He had photos of grape vines, wineries etc - Vitracultue “we are going to study wine, it’s after all one of our largest industries and a fun pastime” as he shows the famous photo of Warren, Dolt and Mark standing around a jug of wine, soaking wet fresh off of El Capitan. Maybe you have seen it.
The class goes on with several slides and one was Mark on the “Thank God Ledge” on half dome.
After the class I went and asked him about climbing, how you get into it, things like that.
I was informed that the RCS was going to be at Stoney this Saturday.
Mark was recently divorced. I think he was about 45? Mid life crisis? He got back into active climbing and hooked up with old friends- Bob Kamps and others, started doing weekend trips.
I was lucky enough to get invited to go on these trips.
Changed my life forever.

We do all stand on the shoulders of others.

@JohnGill …. I was born in 1953. So you have been climbing for 73 years!  Impressive 

Guy Keesee wrote:

..... the famous photo of Warren, Dolt and Mark standing around a jug of wine, soaking wet fresh off of El Capitan.....

Alan Rubin wrote:

Unless Paul Ross chimes in again for a likely 'tie', this would clearly be the 'winner' in any such contest!!!! John, will you share with us what got you motivated to climb back then in an area with no, or very little, established climbing or other climbers (given the timing, was it reading about the FA of Everest)? How did you learn any basic techniques--what books, if any? How did you get in touch with other climbers when you got out to CO--even there I'm sure the 'community' was very small back then? I know that many of us would be very interested in hearing your 'origin story'.

Alan, My friend Jeanne had been to Cheley Camps in Colorado the previous summer and was taught the rudiments of climbing, culminating in her being taken up the east face of Longs. She had an Army surplus nylon rope (white), some nylon slings, and a few pitons and hammer, so we experimented with banging them in in places like Stone Mountain and Cloudland Canyon. Also, I had catalogues from Holubar in Boulder and Sporthaus Schuster in Munich. August of 1954, after HS graduation, another Atlanta friend, Dick Wimer, and I drove out to Colorado. He, also had been to Cheley Camps and knew a little about climbing. He was going to guide me up the east face, but was to nervous to do so since he had fallen on it the previous summer and had broken his leg. Hence my exploratory scramble, going up where my instinct led. At one point I had to flip a short line around a knob in a dihedral to get over a blank spot. A memory of a lifetime. Dick knew several climbers in Boulder. They led us up the Maiden and a Flatiron.

On that trip I recall scrambling up the edge of the north face of the Maroon Bell, with its unstable rock. Guy, I gave up climbing about 2010, after an incident free soloing where a large block I was gingerly edging onto began to separate from the vertical cliff it was on. Sometimes you get a message . . .

On top Longs' after my scramble. J.C. Higgins work boots. 

Exploring Cloudland Canyon, north Georgia, that fall

John Gill wrote:

If there were to be a contest here for the earliest photos of the participants climbing, I submit this: 1953 Black Rock Mountain. GA., taken by my father

I win  

Introduced to rock climbing in Georgia in Spring of 1953, I learned the sport mostly on my own. There were virtually no books or magazines available. I remember looking up "mountaineering" in Encyclopedia Britannica and not learning anything there. When I finally got out to Boulder in August, 1954, I saw what it was all about after meeting several real climbers and getting on the rock with them (including the fascinating rappel off the Maiden)

Did anyone else here learn climbing by themselves? Actually, I consider myself fortunate for I learned a different approach to climbing.

Well you. beat me for sure.  My first climb (Owen-Spaulding route on the Grand) was in 1957 with Exum guides.  I did three other guided climbs, the Exum ridge of the Grand, the East Ridge of Mt. Owen, and the SW Ridge of  Symmetry Spire.  Not to knock the guides in those days, but I really didn't learn much.  The all sort of threw down the rope and said "make sure it doesn't catch on anything."  Those climbs occurred over two or three years of high school.  Having "graduated" from my guided "instruction," I started trying to learn by myself and eventually with others with the same level of (in)experience.  

I think, perhaps fortunately, I didn't know about the Gunks, because in those days the Gunks meant the Appies, and I suspect I would have turned out rather differently if the Appies had been in charge of my learning.  I did find a bit of literature to consult, and read it avidly.  There was Kenneth Henderson"s Handbook of American Mountaineering, published by the AAC, and including some belay recommendations that were so preposterous even I knew they were BS. There was Charles Evans On Climbing, published just the year before I started, which however had a thoroughly British slant that seem off-kilter to me.  For instance, Evans still thought there was a role for nailed boots, and promoted something called the Tarbuck Knot for tying into a swami (of course he didn't call it a swami). The Tarbuck knot was a variation of a tautline hitch that supposedly absorbed fall energy by tightening up and slipping when loaded.  

I stuck with my trusty bowline, and now 68 years later I'm still tying in with a bowline, although now with some fancy finishes.

A third source of knowledge was Gaston Rebuffat's Neige et Roc (later translated as On Snow and Rock), which I read over and over. One unfortunate result was that because Rebuffat's rock climbing photos almost never showed any protection in use, I concluded that I should be leading that way too and so made a lot of my early routes R or X-rated.

(Picture of Peter's Project at Devil's Lake ~1962)

Finally, in 1960, we got Mountaineering---The Freedom of the Hills from the Seattle Mountaineers, which became our bible for all things climbing.

I didn't really start to learn about rock-climbing until I got to college at the University of Chicago.  I quickly found a few enthusiasts with about the same experience as me, and we went about learning together, climbing at Devil's Lake, WI and also making Western trips each summer. The result was that we were mostly self-taught.  With another undergraduate, Steve Derenzo, I started the University of Chicago Mountaineering Club, which grew to well over 100 members durng our time at the college.  I nearly crossed paths with John Gill, who had been a grad student in the Dept. of Meteorology but had graduated and left for a stint as a forecaster for the Air Force a year or two beore I got to U of C.  John's climbs at Devil's Lake were legendary by then.

While at Chicago, I wandered into the geology library one day and found that they had a complete set of Appalachia, the journal of the Appalachian Mountain Club.  Thumbing through various editions, I came upon Fritz Wiessner's description of a visit to the Needles in South Dakota, and then a bit more searching turned an article by Herb Conn.  So off to the Needles we went.  On my second visit, in 1964, I met Don Storjohann and together we made the first (free) ascent of the Needle's Eye, during which my familiarity with unprotected leading was put to the test.  During the traffic jam that caused, I met John Gill, who came wandering up the road to see what what was holding up traffic. That was the start of a climbing friendship that lasted for many years, as we arranged to meet in Southern Illinois, Rocky Mountain NP, the Tetons, and the Needles.  The Needles especially became a yearly reunion, not just John and I, but also Bob and Bonnie Kamps, Mark and Beverly Powell, and Dave and Judy Rearick, together with others who showed up one year or another.  At the time, there wasn't a lot of local climber action (Herb and Jan Conn had shifted their attention to Jewel Cave), and we were, in some sense, "the locals."