Why did AlpineSavvy pull the article on rethinking the water knot ?

The double fisherman's is a slightly more secure knot to use with 1 inch webbing if you're going to leave it as part of a permanent rap anchor. Once that is loaded down, and there is no way the tails are going to ever work their way through. Downside is it's slightly harder to inspect and most people are not familiar with it.

Using water knots on a long-term anchor (they are never permanent) is utterly irresponsible. Double fisherman is way more secure.

John Godinowrote:

An instructor for a canyoneering class in the Portland area reached out to me and said that they had students coming in to their canyoneering class concerned about the security of the water knot because they said they read on my website that using it was dangerous, not recommended. etc.

Thank you John for responding !  Did the instructor give any indication of why he didn't want to switch to a slightly safer knot ?  I respect the argument somebody made earlier about new things having unknown failure modes, but given the claim of 20 water knot deaths in Walter Siebert's video, I would hope for a stronger counter-argument.

To be clear, I don't know if canyoneers typically leave webbing anchors in place for a long time or remove before the last person's descent - the latter would certainly be different from typical climbing use.  If this is the reason, maybe both sides could have been happy with a clarification that the article applies to permanent anchors only - I imagine nobody wants to untie a double fisherman after loading.

This is why I took down my article.

An instructor for a canyoneering class in the Portland area reached out to me and said that they had students coming in to their canyoneering class concerned about the security of the water knot because they said they read on my website that using it was dangerous, not recommended. etc.

IMO, that instructor SHOULD be concerned --also the students-- and so PROFIT from your wise words of caution.  I can imagine that a not-so-tight water knot might see several abseilers give it just the sort of cyclic, low-force loading that can realize that vulnerability for the EXTERIOR TAIL --nb : it's not both ends but this one that slips!-- to ratchet out.

And the knowledge that the water knot (in tape) has some insecurity of the exterior end can lead to fixes.  There is a way to tie the knot symmetrically, such that both ends are *interior*, which I believe won't slip.  Or, one can have a 3rd overhand knot tied a bit away from the ends' joint which after the main knot is tied then this 3rd one is brought in to surround the main knot.

*kN*

What about bumping up the water knot to a figure eight? Would the extra twist stop the creep?

Drederekwrote:

What about bumping up the water knot to a figure eight? Would the extra twist stop the creep?

That's called a Flemish bend.  Works well as a joining knot for rappel ropes, although superseded by the offset overhand.  Never seen it used in webbing and haven't heard anything about tail slippage.

Mark Westfallwrote:

The real question is who carries nylon tubular webbing while climbing? Then worse, leaves it to turn into trash.

Me. 

Because where I climb one still has to leave a sling on a tree or block or other anchor once in a great while to replace the tat that is there so as not to die or facilitate an emergency bail.

I think it's reasonable until a proper anchor gets placed. No need to clutch your pearls about "leaving trash behind" in a thunderstorm retreat, imo. Then I make a note to get a real anchor placed when I can and clean up the tat. I'm a steward like that.

There is still a place for tied runners, imo, and fact of the matter a water knot is easier to untie when needed than others (which is the whole reason I am carrying a few tied runners). Check your knots and leave generous tails. Don't leave a water knot at an anchor.

As you were.

Bb Cc wrote:

There is a beer knot, there is a stone knot, there is no stoned-beer knot (considered safer than...)

Beer knot all the way. Barely any fiddlier, more streamlined, and I leave more tail than a water knot. 

It makes sense to me that the beer knot won’t untie itself on a horn the way the water knot will. But do we know it won’t slip under cyclic loading? Or do we just not know if/when it will?