New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #35

rgold wrote:

Finally, in 1960, we got Mountaineering---The Freedom of the Hills from the Seattle Mountaineers, which became our bible for all things climbing.

Always made me chuckle...

Great history...thanks!

Brian in SLC wrote:

Always made me chuckle...

Great history...thanks!

Certain things from "the Bible" had to be unlearned...

tom donnelly wrote:

True efforts to remake the federal government ~30 years ago were large investigative and analytic combined efforts of outsiders and insiders.

1. BRAC -  Military ,   Base Realignment and Closure   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure

2. Reinventing government.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Partnership_for_Reinventing_Government
https://www.govexec.com/management/2013/04/what-reinvention-wrought/62836/

The 1990s during the Clinton presidency were the last time the US ran a balanced budget. Some of that was efficiency improvements but tax increases on corporations and the wealthy played a bigger role. When the tax increases were proposed Republicans predicted economic disaster but instead we got a booming economy and a balanced budget.

Wow!!!! It is great to wake up this morning to read those wonderful 'origin stories' from John, Guy, rgold, and 'old fat....'!!!!---pure gold!!!  They cover a 20 year time period, though still all in the era before climbing became 'big'--and with many commonalities along with the individual differences ( though John's early experiences --especially that incident on Long's--definitely stand out!!!). 

I started in the middle of this time period---1963, and also had a mix, very much like rgold, of mentoring, self-learning with friends, and gleaning what I could from the few books I could get from the local libraries ---and 'the bible'. I did have the opportunity to learn 'the fundamentals' though my college climbing club ( Wisconsin Hoofer Mountaineers)--who very much followed an old AMC-style ( very common but already then becoming obsolete) rigid format. I acknowledge that they taught those 'foundational' techniques well, but did little beyond that to encourage further development outside said format. Moving forward though, it was self-learning with friends, watching other, more experienced climbers at the crag, and from mentors. In a classic example of that quote Guy posted yesterday about climbers 'passing the torch' to new generations through mentoring--John learned from his friends and those more experienced climbers he met in CO, John was then later one of rgold's mentors, and, later still, rgold was one of mine!!! 

I’m curious to know John Gill’s rappel setup for that amazing free hanging descent off the Maiden BITD. (Made famous on the cover of one of the old Boulder guidebooks.) Surely it wasn’t a dulfersitz!? I imagine you fashioned some leg loops and used some sort of carabiner brake, no?

I just did a quick search through my library, but the only early photos of the Maiden rappel that I could locate are too distant for me to tell what technique they are using. I have a memory of a cover photo from an old catalog--quite possibly the Holubar one that rgold mentioned, that featured a closer view, but my copy of that publication is long since 'gone'.

However, my guess is that the early rappels off that spire ( and other such 'free rappels') did indeed use the dulfersitz (hopefully John will tell us what he actually used). I recall making such rappels--though short ones (off the Leaning Tower at Devil's Lake), during my early training. During that time period it was quite common for climbers to sew leather patches in the crotches of their pants and on the 'rappel shoulder' of their parkas ( Gerry, and other companies as well, I believe,sold parkas with such patches already in place) to help make such rappels more 'bearable' ---didn't help too much!!!! Undoubtedly Dulfer himself, and many successive generations of climbers, made numerous free rappels in the Dolomites and other similar areas, without the benefit of such things as 'Swiss seats'---though it would be interesting to know when such 'accoutrements' were first introduced---anyone on here have any old--pre-1950--climbing technique books ( especially any from Europe) in their library to consult?

Alan Rubin wrote:

Wow!!!! It is great to wake up this morning to read those wonderful 'origin stories' from John, Guy, rgold, and 'old fat....'!!!!---pure gold!!!  They cover a 20 year time period, though still all in the era before climbing became 'big'--and with many commonalities along with the individual differences ( though John's early experiences --especially that incident on Long's--definitely stand out!!!). 

I started in the middle of this time period---1963, and also had a mix, very much like rgold, of mentoring, self-learning with friends, and gleaning what I could from the few books I could get from the local libraries ---and 'the bible'. I did have the opportunity to learn 'the fundamentals' though my college climbing club ( Wisconsin Hoofer Mountaineers)--who very much followed an old AMC-style ( very common but already then becoming obsolete) rigid format. I acknowledge that they taught those 'foundational' techniques well, but did little beyond that to encourage further development outside said format. Moving forward though, it was self-learning with friends, watching other, more experienced climbers at the crag, and from mentors. In a classic example of that quote Guy posted yesterday about climbers 'passing the torch' to new generations through mentoring--John learned from his friends and those more experienced climbers he met in CO, John was then later one of rgold's mentors, and, later still, rgold was one of mine!!! 

Reading these stories is so great. Maybe it’s a reach but some of us who got out late in life took inspiration from climbing greats right here on this thread, ones who got their inspiration from the true greats before. Guy would be one of my mentors though he doesn’t know it  Kris would be another. I believe it truly does “take a village“, we need guidance and friendship. I love how this community is following Ward’s progress on his boulder— out climbing alone day after day.  

I was out climbing with Bob yesterday. The route, Bogota, is a little bit spooky as it follows an arete along a deep chasm to the right. The first bolt is 30 or so feet off the ground. This is the first time I really realized I have no idea what the hell you guys were doing back in the day. You could topple off to the right and get lost in that chasm or roll down to the boulder below and wind up in the hospital – – best case scenario.  And that’s nothing because the 5.10 route to the left has no bolt until nearly the very top. Why even bother??  

As an older woman I am still trying to find my place in this world of rock climbing. It’s such a deeply personal and internal thing. I will never lead these routes. I can barely climb them on top rope.  I just have to find my own motivation for going for it.

Another grateful thought – – I really appreciate Bob’s belaying.  Occasionally, I’m out with other people. If their intention is to make sure I get to the top of the route, they can add a little of their own energy to that belay (ie, haul me up   ). When I’m climbing with Bob, I know it’s under my own steam – – not his. If I bail on a move and need to down climb and choose different steps, he’s working with me on that belay. There’s just enough tension to make sure I don’t take a fall, but it’s still all me climbing. So if I climbed a route, I actually climbed it. (if I fell, I fell. I just didn’t die.)

EDIT TO ADD:  with two daughters and four granddaughters I hope they can see that their dreams can still come true even at the age of 60 or 70 or beyond.  There’s still a lot of life to live.   

Alan, Guy, and Randy - thanks for you giving your perspective on taking out newer climbers. My inclination here has been trending towards a "no", but I might change my mind. I think it's a great thing to take out newer climbers, but I don't feel comfortable doing it in this case. Maybe under different circumstances (e.g. if I already knew the person).

Guy - you said you decked from 20 feet. Were you okay after that? Nowadays I think they call it SPI (single pitch instructor) and I would hope that that designation means something. The problem is that when you're new, you're just assuming that whoever you're with knows what they're doing. It's easy to get into something where you don't realize that you can get killed.

The truth is, I'm estimating about 50% of the encounters I've had with "climbing strangers" have been positive (via meetups, forums, etc), where I wanted to climb with them again. The rest have been duds, and sometimes worse (dangerous/scary).

Alan and rgold, the best thing I did was to take the AMC rock course in the Boston area when I first started. Good to be under the watchful eye of people who knew what they were doing.

Alan Rubin wrote:

During that time period it was quite common for climbers to sew leather patches in the crotches of their pants and on the 'rappel shoulder' of their parkas ( Gerry, and other companies as well, I believe,sold parkas with such patches already in place) to help make such rappels more 'bearable' ---didn't help too much!!!! 

Li Hu wrote:

Getting as many nations to gang up on China and restrict all chip making technologies when China buys 60% or more of the silicon for peaceful purposes.

Restricting EUV, DUV was next.

It’s horrible for trade, and thanks to Biden BRICS looked very attractive to any country that doesn’t wish to be under direct control of the USA.

It’s against all the principles we tout, and against free trade.

Thanks for the perspective and additional info - I didn't know that about the EUV. I'll respond to you further in a DM. This is not a great forum for discussing politics, I should have known, too bad.

Apogee---do you know what year that Gerry ad was published---I'm guessing early/mid 60s ( what year did they go out of business or, at least, stop advertising)? It is noteworthy , in the context of Daniel's question, that the climber is using a Swiss seat and biner combo for his rappel set-up. The $3.50 price tag is also interesting---something like that would probably cost at least $25 today!!!!

Dragons---what year did you take the Boston AMC program? It is likely that Eric Engberg, who posts on here, was one of the instructors, and if it was far enough back in time, I might have been as well. It is worth mentioning that the 'modern' Boston AMC program ( since, at least, the early '70s), is very different than those provided by the AMC in earlier decades. While the fundamentals being taught, appropriately updated, are basically the same, the entire structure and attitude is very different---much more flexible and encouraging, especially once past the 'beginner' phase. So when rgold mentioned that he was fortunate to have avoided becoming 'indoctrinated' by the 'Appies', he was referring to back then, not now.

Wow you guys are old!

Just kidding. Really. Old is good as a climber.

I came to the game late, not starting to climb until 1971 at 16yo. But I still at the ripe middle age of 70 think it’s more about the next climb rather than my earlier climbs. So  a question for you duffers?? When did you realize that time was leaving you irrelevant to the greater climbing world and how did you respond?

Here is my  wife Lorna (71) today leading a 5c in Corsica today. We are trying to stay true to our belief that climbing is in only just supposed to be fun and whatever level we climb at is worthwhile.

Alan Rubin wrote:

I just did a quick search through my library, but the only early photos of the Maiden rappel that I could locate are too distant for me to tell what technique they are using. I have a memory of a cover photo from an old catalog--quite possibly the Holubar one that rgold mentioned, that featured a closer view, but my copy of that publication is long since 'gone'.

However, my guess is that the early rappels off that spire ( and other such 'free rappels') did indeed use the dulfersitz (hopefully John will tell us what he actually used). I recall making such rappels--though short ones (off the Leaning Tower at Devil's Lake), during my early training. During that time period it was quite common for climbers to sew leather patches in the crotches of their pants and on the 'rappel shoulder' of their parkas ( Gerry, and other companies as well, I believe,sold parkas with such patches already in place) to help make such rappels more 'bearable' ---didn't help too much!!!! Undoubtedly Dulfer himself, and many successive generations of climbers, made numerous free rappels in the Dolomites and other similar areas, without the benefit of such things as 'Swiss seats'---though it would be interesting to know when such 'accoutrements' were first introduced---anyone on here have any old--pre-1950--climbing technique books ( especially any from Europe) in their library to consult?

Photo from High over Boulder kind of looks like a Dülfersitz.  Frightening.  I learned to rappel with that technique but then learned the carabiner brake which was smooth and used a harness.  Thankfully.

I think my oldest "how to" book might be the aforementioned Henderson tome Handbook of American Mountaineering published in 1942.  Speaks to "roping down" and the  Dülfersitz.

Across the puddle, my earliest are Ghastly's Neige et Roc from 1959.  Also  Dülfersitz but also that "Swiss seat" technique with a carabiner:

I think my earliest European technique book is Pierre Allain's L'Art de L'Alpinisme from 1956.  He covers the Dülfersitz and Swiss seat/biner techniques but also includes:

Interesting!

Edit to add...  If you haven't browsed thru John MIddendorf's (RIP) historical climbing info...really worth a look see:

Middendorf: Climbing Tools and Techniques 1908 to 1939

Alan Rubin wrote:

 It is worth mentioning that the 'modern' Boston AMC program ( since, at least, the early '70s), is very different than those provided by the AMC in earlier decades. While the fundamentals being taught, appropriately updated, are basically the same, the entire structure and attitude is very different---much more flexible and encouraging, especially once past the 'beginner' phase. So when rgold mentioned that he was fortunate to have avoided becoming 'indoctrinated' by the 'Appies', he was referring to back then, not now.

Good point.  I regularly recommend the AMC program(s) to learners.
The Appie/Vulgarian clash was a unique sociological event, one that presaged the national youth movements of the 1960's.

The times are very different, but are calling for another nationwide movement, as we have now become a police state, and there seems to be no institution able to stop the march to authoritarianism.

Brian in SLC wrote:

Interesting!

Look at the tri-axial loading on that 'biner...that would have 'modern' techy climbers lose their shite. How in the world did climbers survive this stuff...? (/snark)

rgold wrote:

Good point.  I regularly recommend the AMC program(s) to learners.
The Appie/Vulgarian clash was a unique sociological event, one that presaged the national youth movements of the 1960's.

The times are very different, but are calling for another nationwide movement, as we have now become a police state, and there seems to be no institution able to stop the march to authoritarianism.

Alan and Rgold - thanks for the mention of the AMC as a learning option.   As Alan mentioned I have been involved with the Boston version for ~50 years.  I'd like to offer a few personal, undoubtedly biased observations about the AMC and climbing instruction.

1. First the AMC is not one monolithic entity when it comes to programs like this.  Each (geographically defined) chapter offers its own and operates semi autonomously (not so much any more).

2. I am quite sure that Rich's initial impressions were formed during the hay day of the Vulgarians vs. Appies in the 50's and 60's.  Those were the New York Appies.  And they were very rigid in their "rules" and protocols and very controlling.

3. Starting in the early 70's the Boston Appies - lead by Bill Atkinson (a refugee from the NY scene and still very much alive and kicking - especially regarding the current political scene (don't worry he is on the liberal side) at 100+)  - and the Boston Chapter Mountaineering Committee  - ran a very different type of program.  The basics were still taught - how much can that step really vary? - but once a student "graduated they were pretty much accepted as an an equal.  Encouraged to climb whatever they chose and supported in doing so.

4.  During this 30 year (1970 - 2000) "golden era" the BCMC operated pretty independently of "AMC central".  We were self financing, we chose out leaders using common sense, experience and just gut feel - rather then based on some arbitrary training and certification.  

5. Starting in the early 2000's and escalating about 10 years ago "AMC Central" cracked down on us.  Initially because of the finances - we would give to the Access Fund etc,  Donate to help worthy causes, help injured community members.  All without asking for permission.  Made their audits a mess.  But we never asked for a penny from "AMC Central"

6 So in the past 5-10 years The AMC has cracked down on us - all financial transactions need to go through their system.  We have been unsuccessful with requests to donate to local climbing access groups.  The whole process of what it takes to be a leader/instructor is being formalized and put in alignment with the AMC as a whole - hiking, back packing, bird-watching...

7. As a result of this the makeup and philosophy of the BCMC has changed.  the old guard - many who have aged out anyway - are driven away.  The new guard are those that love the rigid AMC rules etc. and tend not to be passionate climbers.

So... 60 years later we have come full circle - Rich's initial impressions are correct again.  I stay involved because I do enjoy mentoring new climbers.  

rgold…. Talking about 6 degrees of separation. I have seen you before!
Remember slide shows? Everybody would get together and drop slides into the projector. The SD Needles was a popular subject at the shows Mark and Bob would host.
These shows fired up the imagination for sure. The desire to climb Castle Rock Spire was implanted into me. It took 20 years for me to find a partner with enough sack to get it done.

I’m fortunate to have started when Swami belts were common as well as the Brake Bar! On my second trip to Yosemite I did fall in with the wrong crowd for sure!
Kim Schmidt took one look at my Brake Bar and promptly relieved me of it! The tragic death of Jim Madson was still fresh in the minds of Camp 4 residents and everyone was ditching their devices. That’s when I learned how to make a device from 6 oval carabiners.

@dragons … I hate those “ATC Guides” and refuse to be belayed by one “in guide mode”.
When the guide put me on the turf it wasn’t the first time I encountered them. I have a friend who is a “gear junky” and he had one. Larry and I were climbing at the Kern Limestone- a cave deal with holes in the ceiling. A big chunk of rock sat on the ground in the cave and it was common to connect a gri-gri directly to it for top roping… he put his new “ATC Guide” on in place of the gri-gri. When I took the predicted fall and was hanging in space I was stuck. Larry fiddled with it some and asked me if I could unweight the rope. What?! So he flipped it over and bam I I went to the deck! Lucky for me there is some friction remaining so you don’t hit terminal velocity.

@Norm….. 1971 was a long time ago for sure. I’m happy to see anyone who is really old still getting after it. It shows you have good genes.
I developed back issues in 2015 and I lost the precision footwork I had and sometimes my left leg just “drops out” so I stopped Mt Climbing and leading… Im now a happy top rope hero.

Rockclimbing has pretty much defined who I am. I made a vow to myself to keep doing it till the day I die. Nowadays I’m happy to do a few tries on something I think I can do (no chimney, no wide crack's) then spend the rest of the day belaying others and just soaking in the atmosphere. I love it.

Later all.

Going to dig up BITD photos. I’m enjoying the memory lane. 

I got to do The Bastille Crack last Tuesday with another 70+ year old from the Gunk, Ivan Rezucha. We were going to climb on the West Ridge but couldn't because of the trail being closed on account of rock fall from work being done on west Redgarden. While we were trying to figure out what to do we noticed that Bastille Crack was open, a rarity. I had last climbed it probably 40 years ago and had long since given up on ever climbing it again do to the long cues that are ever present on the route. My only guess is that everyone had planned on climbing in the sun that day. It was a little nippy with all of my clothes on, but bearable.

My first encounter with Friends was back in the southeast. This would have been in the summer before my brother gave me a #2.

We frequently top roped at this small limestone crag. Limestone in those parts was crap but this face had been a quarry cut back in the old days, and had weathered quite nicely in the decades since the quarrymen unearthed it. We top roped the hell out of that thing, figured out several increasingly harder lines. 

We were young hillbillies, not to borrow someone else's moniker, but we were. So we're there top roping and these two dudes walk up to the base. They were post-college; one of them was a lawyer. They'd heard there was some climbing to be done and were here to check it out. As they unpack, this guy busts out a brand new rack of Friends, may have been the first in the state, I dunno. He let me check it out. Meanwhile these guys are telling us all the places they'd climbed. They seemed worldly, experienced! They regaled us about their recent trip to Italy, and the wonderful Dolomites. 

So they quickly realized those Friends were useless for this little crag. We invited them to take a run up our TR. 

Neither one of them could do our easiest route on their first try. And they couldn't do any of the other, harder lines. Us kid redneck hillbillies showed those guys how to climb. I was sporting Blue Royal Robbins for fuksake. Anyway, every now and then I think about those rock stars and their brand new rack of Friends, that couldn't climb our routes on top rope! Ha! Me and my bud, with whom I am still friends almost 50 years later (jesus, 50 fucking years!), sure were surprised. After ruthlessly wiring every route, we (I) led them with one or two pieces max, headpoints before I knew what a headpoint was.

It was a boost to our morale for sure. Years later, after I was long gone, the brother of a brand-name climber bolted our face and turned our climbs into sport routes. It was a good idea.  

Guy Keesee wrote:

Going to dig up BITD photos. I’m enjoying the memory lane. 

Here are a couple for ya...

Guy Keesee atop Trash Can Rock, Joshua Tree, way back when...

Me, I think on the same day. Same place... Guy took the pic. Ken Gohegan, the veterinarian in 29 Palms at the time, made the tights. Ken and I put up a route up in Indian Country, a crag that Guy and I discovered uphill from Indian Cove, we called The Last of the Gohegans.

Guy and me atop Castle Rock Spire way back when...

That gear sling I'm wearing was made for me by Mike Caldwell, Tommy's dad. He called it a gear brazier. 

On another note, I mentioned a while back the my wife Barbara was off to compete in the IPL Masters Cup power lifting meet in Texas. Of course there are winners in various categories of age and weight classes, masters being divided into age groups beginning at 40. Of course she dominated in her class, age 66 at about 165. But she won the "Best Lifter" award, selected from the entire field across all age and weight classes. There were women there in their 40's who were twice her weight and lifted heavier, but in the end the judges pick one lifter who, when factoring how much they lifted at a certain age and weight, was the overall best. So, for now, Barbara Taylor is the best female lifter over 40 in the International Powerlifting League.

420 pounds on the bar...