Are Mussy Hooks a Slippery Slope?

Tone Loc wrote:

Because it’s an entirely hypothetical future prediction that (in the fallacy form) posits if X, then b will happen, then d will happen, then f will happen, then we all die; while it ignores a, c, and e and all the different permutations that can come from them. Basically, it’s almost always a more emotional argument then a fact based one. I don’t know what exactly qualifies something in the zeitgeist as an official “fallacy.” But, I think the above is an example of when it’s certainly a terrible argument for or against a course of action.

We'll, maybe in theory, but in reality there are definitely events that, while maybe not inevitably but predictably are likely to lead to increasingly negative consequences. While these are often most clear in retrospect, it is not illogical to point out that a given action has a high likelihood of leading to negative outcomes. That is what most people mean when they make a 'slippery slope' argument. Maybe someone will get across the top of a steepening icy couloir without wearing crampons and without an ice ax, but it is not illogical to advise them against taking that first step.

It seems that it's a slippery slope to discuss slippery slopes.

Robert S wrote:

It seems that it's a slippery slope to discuss slippery slopes.

That's what big Slippery wants you to think.

Logan Peterson wrote:

We've considered installing mussy hook anchors on popular, single-pitch sport routes. A concern is that this will encourage toproping through fixed gear on other routes in the general area, most of which have aluminum anchor biners....

Why not replace the aluminum anchor biners with steel or mussy hooks?

Dan The Man wrote:

Why not replace the aluminum anchor biners with steel or mussy hooks?

Are you buying?

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Are you kidding? They clearly lead to the moral decay of youth. If you want tough climbers you have to grant them tough times.

That's why I switch to old school dial-combination locks on my belay rigs. I name my climbs after the combination, which is the date of the FA such as the svelt "Two left 23, 1 right 3, 15." It builds fortitude trying to get the anchor literally actually dialed in. 

Once you're in, you're free to TR off the anchor. Don't forget to make sure last climber down locks the anchor for the next soft team.

just sprayed beer all over the keyboard. LOL

__________________________________________________________________________________________

BTW 

Logan Peterson wrote: "Are you buying?"  Generally I am. And I'd prefer folks do what it takes to not kill an untrained beginner. Have your beginner buddy, who you didn't do shit to train how to do this saftely before you sent him/her/it/they/them up: clip and lower through the shit I paid for which I can easily replace. You can't replace your buddy. 

Everybody is in charge of their own safety.

Questing upwards without having knowledge of the anchor situation is not taking charge of life safety which is a primary concern of oneself.

Rock climbing is not sterile without any variation including what type of anchor is at the end of a pitch, so be prepared for any variation of the possible situation… one aspect of climbing that I personally love.

Learn how to safely attach to an anchor, swap the rope to the anchor and descend safely to ground. Or don’t be the lead climber or don’t be the last person in the group.

 Sorry to say but, “This ain’t rocket science.”

Look I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have a forklift certification, but I’ve been driving one since I was 12. I know that’s not the vision of America that Obama had but it’s how it is. If you get off your forklift on a hill you double check the e brake is set. If you’re about to repel or lower you should triple check your system is safe regardless of what is. It doesn’t have to take a lifetime to triple check everything but it may if you don’t. 

Do mussies increase traffic?  Yes.

Do people TR more of of mussies?  Yes.

Does this require hardware maintenance?  Yes.

So don’t install them if those issues are untenable.  Simple.

Do mussy hooks dumb down the climbing population? Eh…sounds like a “guns don’t kill people, bullets do” argument.

Personally, I like mussies and think there should be more of them.  I don’t know if they are a slippery slope (if so, there’s a long gentle runout at the bottom), but they do have consequences.  

One issue I have is how they concentrate traffic if only select routes have them.  When you simplify the logistics of the most popular routes but not the others, those routes become even more popular.  Conversely, if you put mussies on a route that deserves more traffic, you increase the likelihood of that happening. 

I think the TR wear issue isn’t all that significant.  Most wear on an anchor occurs on lower.   Increasing the number of lowers is what burns anchor hardware.  The life of mussies is always based on the number of rides taken.  Replacement is part of the deal with mussies.

That said, large TR groups really irritate me.  If everyone in the group is keen on a specific route, that’s just a high traffic problem.  But more often, a few leaders of the group are directing a large number of climbers onto a specific route that the majority of the group is not particularly invested in.  Typically, it’s a route that is also very popular and desirable to other parties.  While everyone has a right to be there, it puts a large line of people on one route that could easily be diversified to multiple routes with more positive outcomes.

To take it farther, climbing is just not that well suited to large groups. There is a lot of personal safety and putting that on a few individuals invites risk.  Smaller more autonomous groups are just better at responding to situations and taking care of themselves.  I think that results in better practices in almost every way.

I suspect that the O.P. is asking about one of two possible areas.

One is in the general vicinity of Diablo Canyon, and could possibly see significant traffic. My view is that if some are inclined to toprope through fixed gear, they won’t care if they are toproping through aluminum ovals or mussies. At this crag steel hardware should be used, and I’ve been replacing the aforementioned aluminum junk with steel as I come across it.

The other suspected area is unpublished, the routes are ungraded, and the climbing experience is not particularly very user friendly. Although there are many routes now, the area does not see much traffic and I don’t think it ever will. The use of steel lowering hardware at this area would just be a waste of money. 

Wonder if a wear sleeve could be developed for the mussy/carabiner

Ackley The Improved wrote:

Wonder if a wear sleeve could be developed for the mussy/carabiner

It's already steel and easily replaceable. I don't think you'll be able to reduce wear much more without more cost (higher hardness material). 

And that's the thing right, I feel like I pay more money for rings than I do for mussy hooks, especially the thinner stainless clips. Those are like 4$ a piece and I can't seem to find rings much cheaper than that.

Ackley The Improved wrote:

Wonder if a wear sleeve could be developed for the mussy/carabiner

That juice does not seem like it is worth the squeeze.
Mussy hooks are more than strong enough worn even 80% through.... and they're cheap in the scheme of things, even if you buy them from"expensive" retailers.

Logan Peterson wrote:

Are you buying?

If this was local to me then yes I would spend some money and time replacing the aluminum carabiners. They will wear out at some point anyways. If money is an issue I can think of three options:  

1) You could try to crowdsource funding from your community. I’m sure other people would chip in.

2) You could contact your local access society or the ASCA to see if they would provide hardware.

3) You could simply remove the aluminum carabiners and let people re-thread through rings or chain.

amarius wrote:

Here is Mussy Hook that has been specifically modified for rock climbing  - climbonequipment.com/en-us/…
Modification - using wire gate spring instead of metal flapper to situate rope. It retails for 10USD

It could be argued that "beefier is better" where climbing anchors are concerned - even though it is never OK to TR through the fixed gear, some people still do, and here is what that leads to -

Even beefy Mussys will get worked - 

From - https://www.spanel.com/?p=1168 

As an interesting aside, some years ago a Bishop, CA local tested cold shuts that had a groove worn in them (not as severe as the one in your picture) vs new ones. The worn ones proved to be stronger because the groove held the rope in place. The failure mode of the new ones was to "unwrap," to bend open as the rope slid out. I don't recall the specifics of the load he was applying, but it was large. 

If you're a dedicated sports climber and you're not dropping at least a couple hundred bucks a year on route development/maintenance/donations you're slacking. Preaching is good but action is better.

Dave Meyer wrote:

If you're a dedicated sports climber and you're not dropping at least a couple hundred bucks a year on route development/maintenance/donations you're slacking. Preaching is good but action is better.

Hear, Hear! Support the people doing the work!

The usual PSA:
please only use 304ss in appropriate environments =)

Logan Peterson wrote:

Are you buying?

https://safeclimbing.org/

Yes. It's about as painless as can be to support anchors out ttere. I set up an automatic recurring donation. Think how great the Planet Fitness model works, lol!

See the sticky that is at the top of the General Climbing thread, or the link posted above. 

Unlike heaps of others, ASCA money very directly benefits all climbers. They wisely kept their mission focused, so even the tightwadiest of tightwads out there could contribute the price of giving up a latte or two....

And actually make a difference.

Helen

Thank you all for your input, especially those presenting your local areas as case studies! I hope my question didn't come across as rhetorical; I know I can be opinionated, but mussies are something I'm trying to be open-minded about. For more context, a climbing coalition has generously offered mussies, but not less-obtrusive steel. It's a conversation among local stewards, and not a decision I'd make unilaterally. Some out here find mussies to be eyesores, and they've been known to migrate away from visible anchors. Knowing that I tend towards curmudgeondom, I thought I should reach out to those who've lived with mussies for years.

Mr. Rogers, I especially appreciated the link to the related thread. The areas I'm considering are far from Yosemite in most respects, but I enjoyed that exchange.

Frank, thank you for donating steel in my neck of the woods. The general trend here is that aluminum gets hung by the first ascensionist, then replaced, often with steel, if the route ever sees enough traffic to warrant this. Many aluminum anchors on less-trafficked routes show minimal wear after 10+ years. Had I known my ovals would magically turn to steel, I'd have started hanging them years ago. Joking aside, don't waste your $ replacing brown ovals, as I exclusively develop crap that will never be popular. I'm all for steel at the few popular crags we have, particularly the Winter Wall--a very attractive and dangerous place for new climbers.

Helen, I always appreciate your perspective, your deep concern for the rest of us. We had a fatality years ago in which an experienced toproper decked after cleaning  draws from upper anchors on a 2-pitch route (climbing on 2 joined ropes and tied into middle of one). Complicated scenario and I'd elaborate if asked, but suffice it to say that she'd have lived if she hadn't cleaned that route on that day. I will definitely advocate for opposed mussies in that particular area; TRing off of joined ropes only seems to happen there. Thank you for bringing this to mind; I had not made the connection.

Dan, please excuse me for ribbing you. Up to this point, cost has been the best answer to your question. Thank you for contributing where you climb.