Are Mussy Hooks a Slippery Slope?

We've considered installing mussy hook anchors on popular, single-pitch sport routes. A concern is that this will encourage toproping through fixed gear on other routes in the general area, most of which have aluminum anchor biners. Can anyone share relevant experiences from their local areas? Do mussies convey to the masses that TR-ing through the anchors is acceptable in the area?

For context, the crags under consideration are far from world-class, require some hiking, and will probably never be popular by the standards of most sport climbers. The local ethic has been to only lower through anchor biners on the final descent, and aluminum generally lasts for years here. This said, there's been an uptick in TR-ing through fixed gear, usually on warmups, and presumably by folks who learned in places where this is accepted practice.

If someone started the same conversation in another thread, let me know, and I'll gladly delete this one. Cheers!

In my opinion, I think if someone would run a top rope train on aluminum carabiners, the existence of mussies on a neighboring route probably would not influence that decision.  I live mussies, much cheaper than a fixe draco and more convenient than a quick link.

If someone is TRing thru fixed gear you should politely explain why they shouldn't. Whether aluminum or steel. The word needs to be out there.

I'm pretty much using Mussy hooks on everything right now since they are the cheapest option if bought in bulk.  For really obscure routes I'll use the spring hook/captive carabiners just because they are stainless and will be less rust prone but even those cost basically the same as Mussies.  If a group is going to toprope through the fixed gear I think they will do it pretty much regardless of anchor unless you use open cold shuts maybe.

I like the idea of using vertical offset anchors because it puts all the wear on the upper Mussy and none on the lower steel carabiner. Can be done even with side-by-side bolts if you add chain. The glaring lack of equalization is a prompt for climbers to get out their own quad/cordelette/whatever and use it. If they TR anyway, at least the wear and tear is on just one point.

I was told by someone who is an actice sport climber here in the north east that they are now encouraging to TR through the fixed gear to be safer? 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I was told by someone who is an actice sport climber here in the north east that they are now encouraging to TR through the fixed gear to be safer? 

I have not heard that Nick. Definitely it is not the accepted practice in this corner of the northeast!!!

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I was told by someone who is an actice sport climber here in the north east that they are now encouraging to TR through the fixed gear to be safer? 

I guess you mean LAST climber to be LOWER on fixed gear (instead  last climber rapping)

edit: add details

I realize this might run afoul of a “leave no trace” ethic but it would be nice to normalize fixed signage (eg at trailheads or the base of a crag) to clarify local ethics and provide a QR code where climbers can donate to support maintenance of trails, bolts, gear, etc.

FWIW the steel captive biners (Beal makes them, maybe others) are much nicer than the fat aluminum mussy hooks. I’ve seen people using the cheapo hardware store hooks that are unrated for falls, wear, etc.

Our local coalition presented this issue to the community at large a few years ago. One of the coalitions core values is safety and we execute on that through anchor and bolt replacement.

We decided the added potential safety of the mussys whilst lowering was a worthy trade off for the potential increased frequency in replacement IF the popular routes get TR'd on said mussys.  We do triage our usage of mussys when replacing anchors and only use them on the more popular or less safe tops.  Referencing one specific crag where we swapped to 90% mussys, I have not seen a notable change in the anchor behavior of others.

In the end, some climbers will choose to TR through whatever is up there and there is so much more steel thickness to the mussy than the alternatives. IMHO they can stay 'safer' through much more wear.

-Karl

Logan Peterson wrote:

We've considered installing mussy hook anchors on popular, single-pitch sport routes. A concern is that this will encourage toproping through fixed gear on other routes in the general area, most of which have aluminum anchor biners. Can anyone share relevant experiences from their local areas? Do mussies convey to the masses that TR-ing through the anchors is acceptable in the area?

For context, the crags under consideration are far from world-class, require some hiking, and will probably never be popular by the standards of most sport climbers. The local ethic has been to only lower through anchor biners on the final descent, and aluminum generally lasts for years here. This said, there's been an uptick in TR-ing through fixed gear, usually on warmups, and presumably by folks who learned in places where this is accepted practice.

If someone started the same conversation in another thread, let me know, and I'll gladly delete this one. Cheers!

If you are talking about routes in the general Diablo area, please use mussies or at least steel hardware. I’ve been replacing crappy aluminum ovals and even wires with steel as I come across them.

However, if you are talking about a certain crag between Grants and Gallup, I would not bother. It’s unpublished, not particularly user friendly, and I cannot see it getting much traffic. 

Kyle Gilbert wrote:

FWIW the steel captive biners (Beal makes them, maybe others) are much nicer than the fat aluminum mussy hooks. I’ve seen people using the cheapo hardware store hooks that are unrated for falls, wear, etc.

Here is Mussy Hook that has been specifically modified for rock climbing  - climbonequipment.com/en-us/…;
Modification - using wire gate spring instead of metal flapper to situate rope. It retails for 10USD

High resistance to wear due to hardened steel, dark zinc plating makes for better camouflage on the rock and a rated wire gate make this an ideal change from steel carabiners or mussy hooks for top anchors.

Features

• Working load limit: 1.25 tons
• Hardened steel for toughness
• Dark plating blends in better
• Rated wired gate

Specifications

• Material Main Body: Zinc plated hardened Steel (Alloy 6-B)
• Material Wire Gate: Stainless Steel

It could be argued that "beefier is better" where climbing anchors are concerned - even though it is never OK to TR through the fixed gear, some people still do, and here is what that leads to -

Even beefy Mussys will get worked - 

From - https://www.spanel.com/?p=1168 

Gregger Man wrote:

I like the idea of using vertical offset anchors because it puts all the wear on the upper Mussy and none on the lower steel carabiner. Can be done even with side-by-side bolts if you add chain. The glaring lack of equalization is a prompt for climbers to get out their own quad/cordelette/whatever and use it. If they TR anyway, at least the wear and tear is on just one point.

I’ve been doing chain between the bolts with one lower off. That way it’s redundant but looks too sketchy for tr.

curvenut wrote:

I guess you mean be LOWER on fixed gear instead of rapping 

This. The Rumney guidebook specifies do NOT toprope on the fixed gear but the last lower is expected to be on the fixed gear for safety. 

IMO, It's not hard, don't know the answer around the local ethic around TRing through fixed gear? Default to your own gear being used.
For areas I steward and we allow TRing through fixed gear, we state so in the guide/website. 99% of those anchors are vertical offset rams horn top, captive steel biner bottom. Incredibly easy replacement of the horns when they may need it (or can put another type of connector in its place).

The NEVER TR through fixed gear thing is just not the case anymore, I'll point to Peter Crofts position on this to stoke some flames.

The "don't TR" rule through mussies or whatever is logically inconsistent. At some point every climber lowers through the anchor, whether they got there on lead or not, so the wear and tear is approximately the same, on lead or not. With moderate routes, the likelihood of higher wear and tear through intermediate taking, lowering a bit, etc, off the top is low since most climbers will simply climb the route. The wear from the rope just moving through hooks, links, etc. is minor compared to lowering with the weight of two climbers, something that happens (sorry to be repetitive) from both lead or TR ascents. If a guide or group wants to set up a multi-person TR scenario, then sure, be polite and put in a higher point with a locker to lessen wear and tear. In the end I still don't think it really matters. Maybe How Not 2 can set up an experiment?

So if there's a party of two where the leader does a route, lowers off and leaves the rope through the mussies for the other climber to run a TR and lower off, it's truly neither here nor there. Fixed anchors should be safe to use, easy to use, and easy to replace by LCOs and other management orgs. Climbing is way past the "adventure" phase on single pitch sport routes. Live with it.

Are Mussy Hooks a Slippery Slope?

Are you kidding? They clearly lead to the moral decay of youth. If you want tough climbers you have to grant them tough times.

That's why I switch to old school dial-combination locks on my belay rigs. I name my climbs after the combination, which is the date of the FA such as the svelt "Two left 23, 1 right 3, 15." It builds fortitude trying to get the anchor literally actually dialed in. 

Once you're in, you're free to TR off the anchor. Don't forget to make sure last climber down locks the anchor for the next soft team.

Peter Beal wrote:

So if there's a party of two where the leader does a route, lowers off and leaves the rope through the mussies for the other climber to run a TR and lower off, it's truly neither here nor there. 

I agree, but easy routes also attract big groups and people who bring their new climber friends out to dog up a 5.8. 

That being said, at my local crag the ethic is that it's fine to TR through mussies, even on hard project routes. They get inspected and replaced fairly often and the cost of 30 bucks every few years is worth the convenience when leaving your rope up to TR. But most people here also understand the nuance of not TRing through fixed gear when it's not big beefy steel mussies.

Kyle Gilbert wrote:

I realize this might run afoul of a “leave no trace” ethic but it would be nice to normalize fixed signage (eg at trailheads or the base of a crag) to clarify local ethics and provide a QR code where climbers can donate to support maintenance of trails, bolts, gear, etc.

FWIW the steel captive biners (Beal makes them, maybe others) are much nicer than the fat aluminum mussy hooks. I’ve seen people using the cheapo hardware store hooks that are unrated for falls, wear, etc.

Signs about lowering and a QR seem like a good idea.

Mussy hooks are steel.  They last because they are fat and steel.

Big Red wrote:

I agree, but easy routes also attract big groups and people who bring their new climber friends out to dog up a 5.8. 

That being said, at my local crag the ethic is that it's fine to TR through mussies, even on hard project routes. They get inspected and replaced fairly often and the cost of 30 bucks every few years is worth the convenience when leaving your rope up to TR. But most people here also understand the nuance of not TRing through fixed gear when it's not big beefy steel mussies.

Some routes/areas are going to be sacrifice zones. It's just how it is and and kudos to the anchor replacers who invest in the community. Those newbies just might become locals supporting anchor replacement and maintenance.

Moral decay of the youth most definitely. Certainly an advocate for safety, but everyone should be capable of dropping their rope in the mussys and then removing the TR anchor, biner, etc., without dying.

In Crofts post he talks about TRing through the mussys as lazy.  I guess i see it more as user/taker culture becoming the norm. At the end of the day if you are giving back to the community, donating to the bolt fund, mentoring, picking up trash, promoting good ethic, then i guess you can make a case for using the convenience of mussys however you think makes sense.

Most people i see at the crag that havent taken the time to learn how to clean safely also dont understand the work and resources that go into bolting a route. They often also dont know how to clean up after themselves, turn down the music or leash their dog.

Im honestly surprised at anyone advocating making the crag as safe as the gym or perpetuates the idea that we should wear out gear someone else kindly provided before we wear out our own.