Has anyone started climbing in their 20's and been able to climb 9a?

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

You’re one who said there are as many 5.14 climbers in Chicago as there are in villages in the Alps.

I said the opposite, because living in Chicago sucks for climbing, regardless of how hard your friends climb.

Pino Pepino wrote:

I said the opposite, because living in Chicago sucks for climbing, regardless of how hard your friends climb.

This was your ridiculous statement: “There's probably at least as many random family fathers climbing 5.14 living in small villages in the Alps (disregarding places like Innsbruck) as there are people climbing that grade in the Chicago metro area” 

I then proceeded to cite at least 3 decently known climbers who climbed 5.14 while in Chicago (and I’m sure there might even be a few of other climbers who aren’t widely known), proving my point and showing how ridiculous your statement is. Yes I’m citing exceptionally talented climbers, as you claim, because that’s what you’ll get in any place that has a shit ton of people where motivated/skilled partners are easier to find. Even places that are far from climbing have these weird training facilities we call gyms. 

Jonathan Walker wrote:

Would be interested to hear from the community which cities are considered best for finding motivated partners.

From my experience, gyms do not immediately equate to finding such partners. Many gyms are cliquey, many invite complacency or the casual climber, many young next-gen immaturity and flakiness and terrible communication.

That’s an adjacent argument to my point, but I’d imagine most gyms have the “issues” you mention. 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

I then proceeded to cite at least 3 decently known climbers who climbed 5.14 while in Chicago (and I’m sure there might even be a few of other climbers who aren’t widely known), proving my point and showing how ridiculous your statement is. Yes I’m citing exceptionally talented climbers, as you claim, because that’s what you’ll get in any place that has a shit ton of people where motivated/skilled partners are easier to find. Even places that are far from climbing have these weird training facilities we call gyms. 

Austria and Switzerland already have more routes graded 8c or above than all of the US (going by listings on thecrag or 8a.nu). If you include Italy or France it will be many times more. Who do you think FA'd all of these? Most routes haven't been put up by professional climbers. And definitely not by people who have to drive 6 hours every weekend (the equivalent of driving from Paris to the Alps just for climbing). There are a lot more people putting up 5.14 than you think, they just aren't widely known or on social media.

And gyms do not adequately prepare people for climbing on rock, only actual mileage outdoors does.

While I know things are different now, there was a time ( and not really that long ago) when a good percentage of the cutting edge route developers were driving "...6 hours every weekend....from Paris"  to get to Buoux. Yes, I know that the top climbs of today are harder than those from the '80s/'90s, but those routes still demanded considerable time and effort from their suitors. Additionally, the current 'sophisticated' urban training options were not then available for them. Still, I agree that easy access to rock ( and rock with routes of appropriate difficulty) makes performing at such a high level much easier.

Pino Pepino wrote:

Austria and Switzerland already have more routes graded 8c or above than all of the US (going by listings on thecrag or 8a.nu). If you include Italy or France it will be many times more. Who do you think FA'd all of these? Most routes haven't been put up by professional climbers. And definitely not by people who have to drive 6 hours every weekend (the equivalent of driving from Paris to the Alps just for climbing). 

That has very little relevance to my overall argument, and feels like a weak attempt to move goal posts as you’re directly addressing developers here, but as Alan Rubin pointed out, developers used to (and still do) travel great distances sometimes. I could be wrong, but I believe Porter Jarrard used to travels quite a ways every weekend while developing in the RRG, which actually lead to the genesis of Miguel’s. Adam Ondra and the Flathanger are also both great examples of proximity being a secondary factor. 

There are a lot more people putting up 5.14 than you think, they just aren't widely known or on social media.

I believe I made this exact point in the post you replied to lol

And gyms do not adequately prepare people for climbing on rock, only actual mileage outdoors does.

Tell that to team kids and all the gym bros who climb once a year outside and flash 8a. But if this is the hill you wanna die on, then keep on trolling lol 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Michaela Kiersch is an example, not an outlier. Kasia Pietras, Mike O’Roarke, and Isabelle Faus (youth team) are just a few of the examples of Chicago climbers who Kiersch was training with in Chicago. Albeit none of them still live there to my knowledge. However, I do believe 3 of the 4 climbed V10/5.14 while living there. 

I then proceeded to cite at least 3 decently known climbers who climbed 5.14 while in Chicago (and I’m sure there might even be a few of other climbers who aren’t widely known), proving my point and showing how ridiculous your statement is. Yes I’m citing exceptionally talented climbers, as you claim, because that’s what you’ll get in any place that has a shit ton of people where motivated/skilled partners are easier to find. Even places that are far from climbing have these weird training facilities we call gyms. 

A key distinction I think you are missing with these examples is that they were all young and in school during their time coming up as a climber in Chicago. This really changes the equation. Youthful energy, long blocks of free time to travel during school breaks, and the structure/environment of a youth comp team. This is not intended to take anything away from their accomplishments - they are great climbers and worked hard. But it is a very different situation from the topic of this thread - people who start climbing as adults.

It really depends on schedule and freedom to travel. If you have a lot of ability to travel, living in a city like Chicago can work really well since it gives long blocks of gym training (when you are home in Chicago), and then defined performance periods when you go on a multi-week trip to the Red or Spain or Flatanger or wherever. This has some benefits even - it solves the "trying to perform all the time" problem that limits many climbers. The crux of this approach is you need to have the time and flexibility to take those trips. This can work out decently well for the youth climber, or for an adult with a more flexible work schedule and long blocks of free time (a teacher's schedule, or seasonal work, etc.), or for a professional climber.

For the other situation - a "normal" full time job, limited vacation, and other responsibilities - you can still make it work to climb hard if you live in Boulder or Salt Lake, but would be very difficult to do in Chicago. 

There are a few outliers who can live far from rock, have a full time inflexible job, and still reach a high level in climbing, but those are very rare outlier individuals. For most people, they need to have either nearby rock, or the flexibility to travel, in order to climb hard. Ideally both, but you can get by with just one. 

JCM wrote:

A key distinction I think you are missing with these examples is that they were all young and in school during their time coming up as a climber in Chicago. This really changes the equation. Youthful energy, long blocks of free time to travel during school breaks, and the structure/environment of a youth comp team. This is not intended to take anything away from their accomplishments - they are great climbers and worked hard. But it is a very different situation from the topic of this thread - people who start climbing as adults.

It really depends on schedule and freedom to travel. If you have a lot of ability to travel, living in a city like Chicago can work really well since it gives long blocks of gym training (when you are home in Chicago), and then defined performance periods when you go on a multi-week trip to the Red or Spain or Flatanger or wherever. This has some benefits even - it solves the "trying to perform all the time" problem that limits many climbers. The crux of this approach is you need to have the time and flexibility to take those trips. This can work out decently well for the youth climber, or for an adult with a more flexible work schedule and long blocks of free time (a teacher's schedule, or seasonal work, etc.), or for a professional climber.

For the other situation - a "normal" full time job, limited vacation, and other responsibilities - you can still make it work to climb hard if you live in Boulder or Salt Lake, but would be very difficult to do in Chicago. 

There are a few outliers who can live far from rock, have a full time inflexible job, and still reach a high level in climbing, but those are very rare outlier individuals. For most people, they need to have either nearby rock, or the flexibility to travel, in order to climb hard. Ideally both, but you can get by with just one. 

This thread has devolved from its original topic. My posts are solely arguing the validity of having good partners vs. close proximity. I agree with your post, but the distinction you address has little relevance to my point. 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

That has very little relevance to my overall argument, and feels like a weak attempt to move goal posts as you’re directly addressing developers here, but as Alan Rubin pointed out, developers used to (and still do) travel great distances sometimes. I could be wrong, but I believe Porter Jarrard used to travels quite a ways every weekend while developing in the RRG, which actually lead to the genesis of Miguel’s. Adam Ondra and the Flathanger are also both great examples of proximity being a secondary factor. 

I believe I made this exact point in the post you replied to lol

Tell that to team kids and all the gym bros who climb once a year outside and flash 8a. But if this is the hill you wanna die on, then keep on trolling lol 

Citing the world's best climber as an example, seriously? All of your examples are handpicked, they don't hold for the average climber at any grade that isn't at the absolute frontier of the sport, let alone someone starting later in life. And developers are climbers, plus routes do get repeated.

You also don't know the counterfactual in which the team kids would have spent more time outside (again, team kids are not the topic of this thread). In my experience the majority of gym bros do a lot worse outside than on plastic.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

This thread has devolved from its original topic. My posts are solely arguing the validity of having good partners vs. close proximity. I agree with your post, but the distinction you address has little relevance to my point. 

Talk about moving goalposts.

His point is pretty much the same as the one I've been trying to make (albeit considerably less eloquently). I'm going to stop adding to this discussion now.

Pino Pepino wrote:

Citing the world's best climber as an example, seriously? All of your examples are handpicked, they don't hold for the average climber at any grade that isn't at the absolute frontier of the sport, let alone someone starting later in life. 

I’m sorry, was this discussion not started by explicit mention of 5.14a…and prior to that, 9a. My examples show the extreme end of the spectrum, sure…but they are just that, examples. Idk what more you want from my stance other than examples *shrug*

You also don't know the counterfactual in which the team kids would have spent more time outside (again, team kids are not the topic of this thread). In my experience the majority of gym bros do a lot worse outside than on plastic.

Why would I be concerned about the counterfactual or events that never happened? Lol 

His point is pretty much the same as the one I've been trying to make (albeit considerably less eloquently). I'm going to stop adding to this discussion now.

Alan’s post literally starts by essentially saying you’re wrong lol 

Christian Mercene started in college and has climbed 14c/d iirc