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Has anyone started climbing in their 20's and been able to climb 9a?

Pino Pepino · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 0

I don't disagree, but I don't think that's a necessary condition. There's not boat loads of people climbing 5.14, and training is done mostly alone. Having a motivated partner helps a lot, but 'a climbing crew' is something twenty-year old students may have, not middle-aged adults. Unless they are Dave Graham, although he seems to be increasingly a loner as well.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

Gram was absolutely in a crew of over achievers during his formative years. You also need to have access to the kind of climbing that you want to do. But that also goes hand in hand. You are not going to hang out @Wiemea wall and not run into folks working on hard climbs but if you're crew prefers easy slab climbs on Mt Willard you will not progress without changing the people you climb with.  Probably not too many really good ice climbers in FL but there's also lots of ice climbers in NH and VT that will never lead harder than grade 3 because of who they climb with. 

Go Back to Super Topo · · Lex · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 285
Pino Pepino wrote:

I don't think motivated people around you matter as much as easy access to rock for non-professional people with normal life obligations. Climbing is very specific, so having access to actual rock routes to train, siege and memorize sequences matters. Having other motivated people around is a nice bonus, but you still have to put in the work training - and most of the time you do that alone, so motivation must come from within you first. 

If I live in Oliana/Siurian/Margalef or Ceuse and hang with 5.10 chuffers my odds of climbing 9a are significantly less than if I live in Chicago (or the UK) and hang with crushers. Give me a single example of someone climbing 9a who’s main partners are climbing 5.10….you can easily travel to hard climbs. You can’t easily find motivated, strong partners. 


I understand your point regarding “non-professional people with normal life obligations.” but you can plug in 8a for 9a and my point remains. 

Joe Frazer · · San Diego, CA · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 16

Not sure when he started but I find this send to be relevant to the thread. 

https://youtu.be/y8EhJcXhcEY?si=31V90sKdT1SIOnjn

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

Pino. thats how most 20 year old students get really good. hanging with a crew and growing together, pushing each other together.   certainly  there are occasional loners Honold is the only one I can think of and his climbing improved significantly when he started hanging with Caldwell. Throughout history most of the really cutting edge climbers have come from a strong crew.   

Not Not MP Admin · · The OASIS · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 17
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Pino. thats how most 20 year old students get really good. hanging with a crew and growing together, pushing each other together.   certainly  there are occasional loners Honold is the only one I can think of and his climbing improved significantly when he started hanging with Caldwell. Throughout history most of the really cutting edge climbers have come from a strong crew.   

I feel like Honnold is a great example of someone who got exponentially better once he started climbing with Tommy and Siegrist regularly. What was his hardest redpoint prior?

He’s still a hard one to measure though as pursuing the hardest climbs is not his main objective. 

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

I think before he hooked up with those guys he was  pretty much soloing.  hard stuff for solos but nothing near 5.14 that he climbs now. 

Austin Donisan · · San Mateo, CA · Joined May 2014 · Points: 674

His 8a is public. He sent 14b in 2007 and 14c in 2010.

Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10

Alex was a high level 'comp kid' before he became a world-famous soloist, so no surprise that he was sending 14s over 15 years ago.

Not Not MP Admin · · The OASIS · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 17
Austin Donisan wrote:

His 8a is public. He sent 14b in 2007 and 14c in 2010.

IIRC that’s around the same time he started climbing full time. Presumably with other high level climbers in the valley (Hans comes to mind) 

@Alan - “high level” comp climbers 20-25 years ago are not the same as high level comp kids these days. The boards have expedited climbing progression astronomically. Comp kids these days are sending 14’s with ease on the regular now. Comp kids during Honnolds time were sending 13’s. There’s levels to the generations. 

Pino Pepino · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 0
Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

If I live in Oliana/Siurian/Margalef or Ceuse and hang with 5.10 chuffers my odds of climbing 9a are significantly less than if I live in Chicago (or the UK) and hang with crushers. Give me a single example of someone climbing 9a who’s main partners are climbing 5.10….you can easily travel to hard climbs. You can’t easily find motivated, strong partners. 


I understand your point regarding “non-professional people with normal life obligations.” but you can plug in 8a for 9a and my point remains. 

That's not a realistic scenario because you can easily find motivated and capable partners in those places (or really any place with a concentration of decent outdoor climbing). But regardless, if you climb 5.10 and move to Siurana, you will probably climb 8a before a person that trains with crushers in Chicago, where there is no proper climbing within hours and it is freezing for most of the year. Mileage on rock is more important for the average person's climbing development than people shouting "yeah dude you got this" at you while climbing. 

Let's agree to disagree. I generally agree that community and support from strong climbers around you matters - I just think that all else equal it matters a bit less than access to rock.

Frank Stein · · Picayune, MS · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

Community matters. The first 5.14 in New Mexico was Mainliner. A beautiful line at a popular area that sat unrepeated for twenty years until Cody Roth came back from Europe.  Within a couple of years of Cody getting the second ascent, at least six Albuquerque locals sent it, several as their first 5.14. Shortly thereafter, other unrepeated routes such as Date With Death and Event Horizon went down in short order with multiple ascents. 

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

community is everything. it's almost unheard of for anyone to be cutting edge in any sport in a vacuum. 

Go Back to Super Topo · · Lex · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 285
Pino Pepino wrote:

That's not a realistic scenario because you can easily find motivated and capable partners in those places (or really any place with a concentration of decent outdoor climbing). But regardless, if you climb 5.10 and move to Siurana, you will probably climb 8a before a person that trains with crushers in Chicago, where there is no proper climbing within hours and it is freezing for most of the year. Mileage on rock is more important for the average person's climbing development than people shouting "yeah dude you got this" at you while climbing. 

You’re missing my point. How am I going to climb 8a, or even progress through the lower grades, if none of my partners are motivated to do so? And tell that to Michaela Kiersch (who literally traveled 6hrs one way to the RRG to make the FFA of a 5.14). Motivated partners > proximity to climbs. 

Let's agree to disagree. I generally agree that community and support from strong climbers around you matters - I just think that all else equal it matters a bit less than access to rock.

You can’t say you agree to disagree and then proceed to end your post with your point about what we disagree upon lol 

Pino Pepino · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 0
Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

You’re missing my point. How am I going to climb 8a, or even progress through the lower grades, if none of my partners are motivated to do so? And tell that to Michaela Kiersch (who literally traveled 6hrs one way to the RRG to make the FFA of a 5.14). Motivated partners > proximity to climbs. 

You can’t say you agree to disagree and then proceed to end your post with your point about what we disagree upon lol 

I'm not missing your point. I just don't buy that a partner's motivation is a more important factor for progression than access to rock. The assumption that people with the necessary skill to climb hard don't progress because their friends only climb 5.10 isn't accurate. (Obviously it's hard to separate these things as people that improve tend to find new people to climb with once they progress.)

The people that climb 5.14 or higher have motivation (and skill) in abundance. They climb hard because they want to, not because their friends are motivated to climb hard. Trying things together is fun, but your partner isn't going to make a difference to any of your training sessions, where you toil away alone, or your 200th go on your project in freezing temps. Boring, steady work is how people progress past age 30 (and even if you start climbing as a teen it's unlikely you'll climb 5.14 before that age unless you're a total prodigy).

Maybe a non-random sample, but all the people I know that climbed 8b+ up to 9a climb with their girlfriends or wives most of the time and occasionally with friends. Most of their climbing partners are happy for them to leave the draws on their warm ups. Sure they are motivated, but they are not peers - most are happy to climb 5.11 or 5.12, maybe an occasional 5.13. Hard ascents typically involve people laying siege to a climb and it's difficult enough to find a belayer who wants to go to the same crag every weekend.

And Michaela Kiersch is a good example. How many people live in Chicago and climb? There's probably at least as many random family fathers climbing 5.14 living in small villages in the Alps (disregarding places like Innsbruck) as there are people climbing that grade in the Chicago metro area. Michaela Kiersch is an outlier. Access to rock > motivated partners.

Go Back to Super Topo · · Lex · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 285
Pino Pepino wrote:

I'm not missing your point. I just don't buy that a partner's motivation is a more important factor for progression than access to rock. The assumption that people with the necessary skill to climb hard don't progress because their friends only climb 5.10 isn't accurate. 

You’re absolutely missing my point because that’s not at all what I said. I said your partners ability (and motivation) is more important than proximity to climbs. Can you give me a single person who is regularly climbing 5.14 who trains and main partner climbs 5.10?

You get better by being around those who are better and like minded. I believe the phrase is iron sharpens iron.

The people that climb 5.14 or higher have motivation (and skill) in abundance. They climb hard because they want to, not because their friends are motivated to climb hard. Trying things together is fun, but your partner isn't going to make a difference to any of your training sessions, where you toil away alone, or your 200th go on your project in freezing temps.

I agree that those climbing 5.14+ are highly motivated. These climbers are typically also highly competitive, which is even more of a reason why partners matter so much. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that much of their motivation comes from their peers and competitive nature. The fact that you don’t think your partner is going to make a difference in your training session speaks wonders about your side of the stance and your outlook on the matter. 

And Michaela Kiersch is a good example. How many people live in Chicago and climb? There's probably at least as many random family fathers climbing 5.14 living in small villages in the Alps (disregarding places like Innsbruck) as there are people climbing that grade in the Chicago metro area. Michaela Kiersch is an outlier. 

I’m not even going to comment on ridiculous your Dads-climbing-5.14 comment is. Michaela Kiersch is an example, not an outlier. Kasia Pietras, Mike O’Roarke, and Isabelle Faus (youth team) are just a few of the examples of Chicago climbers who Kiersch was training with in Chicago. Albeit none of them still live there to my knowledge. However, I do believe 3 of the 4 climbed V10/5.14 while living there. 

Pino Pepino · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 0

You're citing exceptionally talented pro climbers as examples (who also started climbing as kids). Chicago metro area is ~10mil people, more than the population of Austria. Yes, there are people that climb 5.14 whose regular partners climb 5.12 (not 5.10 because at best there will be one or two warm-ups at that grade at most crags). 

We can both agree that group synergies matter for improvement, and that access to routes nearby with a disciplined training regime helps. The rest is a difference in nuances, so let's just leave it at that.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

name  one 5.14 climber who's mentors were 5.6 trad climbers.... 

Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10
Pino Pepino wrote:

You're citing exceptionally talented pro climbers as examples (who also started climbing as kids). Chicago metro area is ~10mil people, more than the population of Austria. Yes, there are people that climb 5.14 whose regular partners climb 5.12 (not 5.10 because at best there will be one or two warm-ups at that grade at most crags). 

We can both agree that group synergies matter for improvement, and that access to routes nearby with a disciplined training regime helps. The rest is a difference in nuances, so let's just leave it at that.

"not 5.10 because at best there will be one or two warm-ups at that grade at most crags "---that they are interested in climbing at. FTFY

Go Back to Super Topo · · Lex · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 285
Pino Pepino wrote:

You're citing exceptionally talented pro climbers as examples (who also started climbing as kids). Chicago metro area is ~10mil people, more than the population of Austria.

You’re one who said there are as many 5.14 climbers in Chicago as there are in villages in the Alps.

Yes, there are people that climb 5.14 whose regular partners climb 5.12 (not 5.10 because at best there will be one or two warm-ups at that grade at most crags).

It’s almost like you’re making my point for me  

We can both agree that group synergies matter for improvement, and that access to routes nearby with a disciplined training regime helps. The rest is a difference in nuances, so let's just leave it at that.

Whatever you say, man. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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