New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Alan Rubin wrote:

Ah, yes, Donald, those ' time-honored values' such as sexism, racism, imperialism, oligarchy, monopoly, classism, facism....undoubtedly we are entering a new 'golden age' for a few ( many of whom already have more than their share of the gold) but for the rest of us.....

Let's stick to climbing and such things on this thread---at least we can have reasonably tolerable discussions.

Wow, Alan, "Imperialism" "monopoly" "classism" "oligarchy". Those are some damn good time-honored Marxist shibboleths. The others are more Neo-Marxist; they eventually evolved when the radical left were miserably failing at good old-fashioned class warfare and , led by Herbert Marcuse, among others, took the off-ramp into gender and race.

Are these the horrors  you imagine you are fighting when you enter the voting booth? In 2025?

A few superfluous comments:

One of my favorite quotes when contemplating feats across generations:  “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there,”  (L.P. Hartley in his 1953 novel “The Go-Between.”). The gestalt of the times is always changing and altering perceptions; the psychological environment of a time and place affects achievements as does improvements in preparation for those achievements. Towards the end of the 1950s there were relatively few serious rock climbers - how many? I can only speculate that the major outdoor clubs having climbing sections on the East and West coasts, the Sierra Club, the Appalachian Trail Club, plus a few interior organizations like the Chicago Mountaineering Club, plus a smattering of individuals across the country may have numbered 15K - a guess. Nowadays, it is approximated there are 10 million American climbers. Worldwide, maybe 35 million. The Normal Curve has a tail end so much larger than previous generations. So many more naturally talented climbers.    

Claude E. Benson in his British Mountaineering (1909) comments on there always being little boys who can climb things we adults cannot. 

Forty five years ago I experimented with Carlos Castaneda's Art of Dreaming and had some remarkable adventures in an alternate reality that was more pronounced than what we normally experience. After floating up a few imaginary climbs I realized that over the years, behind my everyday aspirations, was the idea of minimal contact with the rock. It's no wonder I found off widths and tight chimneys abhorrent (apart from disadvantageous body dimensions). Speaking of squirming through labyrinths of stone, Herb and Jan Conn, both quite small people if I remember correctly, explored over 60 miles of the Jewel Cave in SD.

Yes. that is a few of them.  the fact that Putin plays trump like a cheap fiddle at the fair is rather concerning.. that trump tried to overturn the last election, that he is a career criminal, that he commits treason multiple times and simply bragged about it and said there's nothing wrong with a bit of treason, its just politics...  the fact that he is helplessly incompetent and the rest of the worlds leaders have zero respect for him..  and the fact that he is a self absorbed person who treats every one around him like shit.  he doesn't pay his help. that's a deal breaker for me right there. Never trust someone who treats the help like shit. While you are at it never trust anyone who shits on a gold toilet.   Yes there is great cause for concern and not much hope that he will suddenly become competent and decent.. 

I have quite a few friends and family who voted for Trump, and I still maintain functional relationships with them. Especially the ones who say something like, 'I voted for Trump because I think there is a greater likelihood of policy changes that align with my values, however I strongly dislike Trump as a person, and the voting process comes down to the same simplified binary choice'. Essentially, I feel exactly the same way, but voted in the alternative direction. 

If discussions like this could be based on issues and common values, and much less on the identity politics of the candidate themselves, it would be a helluva lot more productive, and far less divisive to our communities and country.

Or maybe not. There’s an awful lot of people who just want to fight.

Not 'imagination' Donald, it is reality. And, yes, in the past 3 elections, in particular, I  have gone into the voting booth in an effort to counter such real horrors.

"Imperialism " ( as well as the other 'isms') isn't a "Marxist shibboleth", it is an historical reality that even you ( I assume!!!) can't deny. And it is not at all my imagination that Donald Trump is threatening to take over Greenland and the Panama Canal ( not even considering his comments about Canada)---fits the dictionary definition of 'imperialism'. And even if he is just saying such things as a 'negotiation tactic' , bullying, while very much Trump's style, is not a sane basis for conducting foreign policy. Just one non-imaginary horror.

You bemoan what you believe are all the horrible things that have corrupted the "Western world...since Workd War 2". Let's look at just a few things that made up that wonderful to you environment  in the 'Western world' in those years before Workd War 2----the Great Depression was still very much on-going ( ever hear of that?); totalitarianism, particularly fascism was expanding aggressively, already creating a panoply of horrors; highly destructive resource extraction was already seriously harming the environment; much of the world's population were governed by foreign and exploitive Colonial powers; in this country, Jim Crow ( and related racism) was well-established---and not only in the south; anti-semitism was still pervasive; women were still very much second-class citizens......I could go on for much longer. Yeah, those are the 'traditional values' that you are so excited about returning to--against those things I do hope to be fighting as long as I live.

But on here, I'd rather be discussing topics such as John Gill just posted about!!!

I’d rather talk about Helen’s tomatoes and Lori’s navigation skills than what’s happening in Amerikan politics (misspelt by design).

Or climbing even.

https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM

I was once asked what the opposite of love is. And the obvious answer was hate. However, it was suggested instead that the opposite of love is apathy. Many of us have been so appalled and disgusted by Mr. Trump over the years that we continue to feed the beast with hate. It has taken an extraordinary amount of my energy, watching and protesting. I am actually so worn out by it that finally I feel apathetic. His stuff just isn’t working on me anymore. It didn’t even occur to me to watch the inauguration.  I hope it’s a permanent liberation, although it will require strong discipline. I can continue to be involved with politics and especially climate change without emotionally engaging with this president.  

—

Far more interesting to me was John Gill’s post above. I would love to hear more, John!  How did it work for you?

I believe I have read all of Castaneda’s books. It was disappointing to learn that he was mostly a fraud… but that doesn’t change the Toltec wisdom he captured.
Many spiritual traditions teach that the basis of all human achievement is Intention. Everything starts with a desire, a vision… and eventually manifests as reality in our physical lives.

So I’ve thought a lot about this as it relates to climbing. I’m spending more and more time visualizing the route I want to climb—hopefully more time picturing and less time struggling.  I picture it as effortless.  

A guru taught that the more time spent in Attention and Intention the less time required in exertion.  As a 71 year old rock climber I want to explore the breadth and width of this theory.   

—-

Carl, my navigational skills are improving, but my weather skills are for shit. I saw that we were going to have brutal wind storms today but all was quiet out in the desert and I thought I’d take a hike.   I did capture a selfie with the Sphinx, but almost didn’t make it back to my car. It was like a hurricane passing through.

John Gill wrote:

A few superfluous comments:

One of my favorite quotes when contemplating feats across generations:  “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there,”  (L.P. Hartley in his 1953 novel “The Go-Between.”). The gestalt of the times is always changing and altering perceptions; the psychological environment of a time and place affects achievements as does improvements in preparation for those achievements. Towards the end of the 1950s there were relatively few serious rock climbers - how many? I can only speculate that the major outdoor clubs having climbing sections on the East and West coasts, the Sierra Club, the Appalachian Trail Club, plus a few interior organizations like the Chicago Mountaineering Club, plus a smattering of individuals across the country may have numbered 15K - a guess. Nowadays, it is approximated there are 10 million American climbers. Worldwide, maybe 35 million. The Normal Curve has a tail end so much larger than previous generations. So many more naturally talented climbers.    

For sure numbers matter and one reason I think youth climbing has grown so rapidly is that doing it at a high level is possible for people ill suited for traditional American team sports. There was a large pool of kids who had little chance at football, basketball and to a lesser extent baseball/softball just because of body size. Climbing provides them with something they can excel at plus it's a lot of fun. And opportunities to play those traditional sports are hard to come by after high school and college while climbing can be a lifetime pursuit.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Not 'imagination' Donald, it is reality. And, yes, in the past 3 elections, in particular, I  have gone into the voting booth in an effort to counter such real horrors.

"Imperialism " ( as well as the other 'isms') isn't a "Marxist shibboleth", it is an historical reality that even you ( I assume!!!) can't deny. And it is not at all my imagination that Donald Trump is threatening to take over Greenland and the Panama Canal ( not even considering his comments about Canada)---fits the dictionary definition of 'imperialism'. And even if he is just saying such things as a 'negotiation tactic' , bullying, while very much Trump's style, is not a sane basis for conducting foreign policy. Just one non-imaginary horror.

You bemoan what you believe are all the horrible things that have corrupted the "Western world...since Workd War 2". Let's look at just a few things that made up that wonderful to you environment  in the 'Western world' in those years before Workd War 2----the Great Depression was still very much on-going ( ever hear of that?); totalitarianism, particularly fascism was expanding aggressively, already creating a panoply of horrors; highly destructive resource extraction was already seriously harming the environment; much of the world's population were governed by foreign and exploitive Colonial powers; in this country, Jim Crow ( and related racism) was well-established---and not only in the south; anti-semitism was still pervasive; women were still very much second-class citizens......I could go on for much longer. Yeah, those are the 'traditional values' that you are so excited about returning to--against those things I do hope to be fighting as long as I live.

But on here, I'd rather be discussing topics such as John Gill just posted about!!!

Okay, this has to be the best post I've seen on here, like ever.

Once again, it's completely dark in this So Cal mountain town, as the 'devil winds' howl outside trying to spark up another devastating wildfire. Meanwhile, in DC, deathly cold was present for today's inauguration- there's a metaphor in there, somewhere.

Now if Trump was the real man he beats his chest to be, he would have bested William Henry Harrison and delivered that address outside, without a coat. And let the ensuing pneumonia do the greatest service to this country.

apogee wrote:

Today this country will inaugurate a convicted felon and demonstrated enemy of democracy as President for the second time. I’m fairly confident this country will survive even this low point in its history, but I’m also equally confident the damages to come will be dramatic. Best of luck to us all.

I’m just waiting to see what ejecting 11M people will look like.   

Carl Schneider wrote:

I’d rather talk about Helen’s tomatoes and Lori’s navigation skills than what’s happening in Amerikan politics (misspelt by design).

Or climbing even.

https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM

If you ever come to the U.S. I would avoid such misspellings . There are plenty of Americans who are quite touchy about that kind of thing and are sticklers about proper spellings. I know, go figure. They might even take it as a kind of slight-- showing disrespect for no apparent reason. Chalk it all up to a little dash of robust and properly directed manhood not always in great abundance at locales such as this thread.

Sorry about the positioning of my comments above. A glitch occured. 

Since I'm up against my posting limit and am busy tomorrow I'll have to respond to Mr. Fossil's comments below.

Don't let your emotions get the best of you. I've been arguing with libs for a long time now-- often with 3 or four at a time. Back in the old Taco days some of the Libs there would even attempt "opposition research" on their opponents in order to embarrass or discredit them. Apogee remembers those days. 

Take it easy. You don't have to get ad hominem with me. It makes you appear like your playing to the peanut gallery or trying to save a maiden in distress. A lot of the posters here who are conservative don't even bother to take on these issues because it's stressful and alienating and puts them at odds with the majority of folks here. I'm usually like that too but sometimes I just can't let it go. Besides, I like a good argument, once in a while, and I rarely ever resort to truly personal attacks unless there's no other option, such as when I'm attacked personally. Whereas I regard the political views of most of the people at this site and elsewhere regrettable, I don't hold it personally against them. They may revile me but I can't control others. I can only state my deepest convictions and hope for the best.But at the same time I don't harbor any delusions-- libs can be truly nasty buggers. Once I was surrounded by 7-8 of them on ST in a dark alley of a thread one night and barely escaped with my life.

That last quote you inserted by Frank Zappa is probably not good. Never mention "murder "in any context. Rule #1. 

"The golden shower age of America begins right now."

Anyone who refers to Denali on a regular basis will continue to call it Denali no matter what Trump does with his sharpie.

Not so long ago, this would have been a story in the onion 

Golf of Mar-a-Lago would be better marketing

Old lady H wrote:

Re weights, they have one real advantage. They are a set thing, and consistent. A 5 pound weight is a 5 pound weight, a 45 pound bar is a 45 pound bar. Anywhere. Any time. That is always what it is. 

I've said that I don't use weights much.  But a major advantage of weights is that they are adjustable.  In possibly tiny increments, so you can fine-tune the resistance to your progress.  If climbing is your training modality, then you are at the mercy of the moves, something that can't often be well-controlled.  Without planning it, you might find yourself called upon to do something much more demanding than anything that would be part of a rational training regimen.  I think a lot of climbing injuries happen this way.

Since I've always been drawn to climbing-inspired bodyweight activities, my interest in weights is primarily as counterweights, i.e. as part of some pulley concoction that will allow me to work on the chosen motions with less than body weight.  This is by now a standard part of hangboard protocols, but it works for a broad spectrum of moves. 

fossil wrote:

So, Donald you know you are supposed write your stuff below the quote box instead inside of it making it look like Carl (who is well liked and from Australia if I'm not mistaken) wrote it? Why don't you take your puffed out chest, I'm gonna show all you liberals schtick somewhere it is appreciated, because it isn't here. There are other people on here that I suspect voted for trump that I could still get along with, climb with and even possibly discuss this delicate matter without either of us going into a rage. You however, with your attitude, It would be hopeless.

You should maybe take this Frank Zappa quote to heart...

"If your children ever find out how lame you actually are, they will probably murder you in your sleep."

The words ‘for no apparent reason’ keep echoing around my hollow head. No apparent reason. I think there are plenty of apparent reasons to fill many an arsehole, if they were properly inserted.

Belated happy birthday to OLH, may all your belayers be hunky!

I’m a retired PT and exercise researcher so exercise is part of my identity and I’m overqualified to talk about its benefits. I exercise for three main reasons.

I follow a climbing training program of sorts, meaning I do supportive not-climbing exercises (like fingerboarding) and my climbing is sometimes structured to improve performance and reduce the likelihood of injury rather than just having fun. I’ve done this since 1976 and it’s too late to stop now! In the 70s training consisted of doing pull-ups, climbing as often as I could and, er, that was it. My training is hopefully now a bit more nuanced. I find training satisfying but I entirely understand if people don’t and don’t want to train.  

Secondly, I do exercises to try to minimise the impact of my several aches and pains and lessen the chance of new ones. This benefits life in general and indirectly helps my climbing; both are more fun if my aches are not too attention-seeking. Exercise is a key part of managing aches and pains with far better evidence than some of the diets, lotions and potions you read about. As an example, I have arthritis in my right hip because I chose the wrong parents. It was aching a lot on Sunday evening (I walked 2500 steps), but yesterday it was much better (11000 steps). Unfortunately many people find taking a tablet, rubbing in a cream, or having someone else do surgery to them is easier than consistently maintaining an exercise program.

Thirdly, for general health. In particular I do some general strength work to keep me out of a care home and have a fulfilling life for as long as possible. Everyone should do this! It is most important for older women (the least likely to exercise for strength) and least important for younger men (the opposite). 

Many of the exercises I do work for all three: squats help climbing high steps, reduce my knee aches, and will hopefully maintain quads. power (the number one physical predictor of disability) in my very old age. 

The biggest challenge with exercise is to stick at it. There is a whole science to health behaviour change in general and exercise adherence in particular, dozens of possible tactics that usually help some people but not everyone. At a very minimum I suggest people consider what they want to get out of exercising, and think about their barriers and facilitators to exercise and how to address these. If you are struggling to maintain a consistent habit, try thinking of other positive habits you have and why you have maintained these. In my view, being persistent is more important than the precise exercise you do. I tend to do bodyweight exercises, mostly at home, as I always have the equipment with me and I can fit little bits of exercise around the rest of my life. Other people prefer to go to a gym and lift weights perhaps because they prefer to have a place to exercise. Neither is the right answer. The former is right for me, it might not be right for you. 

As someone else said, we’re all doing way better than 95% of the population. Stick at it!

Bodyweight exercises: you've usually got the equipment with you, even when you're not at home or in the gym!

Reguchillo and olive trees: I’ve just had three weeks in the Jaén area of Andalusia, southern Spain. Great weather in mid-winter, very good single pitch sport climbing, very few other climbers. Can recommend. 

fossil wrote:

This will be my last post on this whole training morass. If all you are after is some elusive number then by all means train and you guys discuss best strategies. But if your goals are more modest like mine and you are okay climbing a grade that comes easily, especially when it is a grade that I will never run out of classic aesthetic lines to climb, why would I try to push beyond that. Given that it seems to be working and all.

If it works for you great! I'm happy to see anyone climbing and having fun especially us older types. I like fun moderate climbs too. I mean the hardest stuff I can do these days is pretty moderate. But I train for more than just chasing a number. As others have said as well I find the health benefits from training extend far beyond climbing harder. 

I do not get a sense that you are connected to a major climbing area with a large with a large climbing populace. Well I am, and I get to meet a lot of the out of staters, Canadians, and Europeans as well because they visit the local climbers watering hole and I meet them out in the park. I may not have national noteriety but nearly everyone that climbs in central Oregon knows who I am, and anyone who comes from anywhere and spends more than a day climbing trad is most certainly going to bump in to me. Smith is famous for hard climbs, i am well connected, why is it so hard for you to believe that someone who is out there all the time might have a pretty good assessment of who is flashing what and what tactics are deployed, instead of just buying in to what instagram, the mags and the gossip around your daughters gym is telling you, people might not be quite as hot as you think they are.

I'm not discounting your experience but it seems you're discounting mine. I expect both our views are colored by the youngsters we've climbed with. And in my experience while some of them aren't interested and don't adapt well to climbing outside those I've climbed with a lot have done so. It's not from instagram or gossip or the mags. I've held the rope for kids who regularly flash 12 sport and at least one who has done it on 12 trad lines. I know because I belayed him on them. But sure I could be overestimating the abilities of the younger generation as a whole based on the subset I've seen closely. That's why my post that kicked this off was couched as a question.

ETA: Another thing I thought of -- in my neck of the woods a lot of team kids never transition to outside climbing. That could be because while North Carolina has some great trad areas there really isn't a lot of sport climbing here. The kids who do turn into outside climbers tend to be the better ones and/or have climbing parents. It may well be different in areas with lots of accessible sport climbing.  

Fossil, There's no doubt that the majority of climbers are sport and boulder centric but there's also a pretty rad Contingent that is so far ahead of the rad and bold curve that you can't deny it. Did that old and bold generation have a Honlove Caldwell team that came even remotely close to what they have achieved?  Certainly they were bold especially considering the lack of information before the Internet but not very close to the technical difficulties that these guys are pushing while being bold. The stuff they did in Patagonia is ridiculous..  how about the current record on the cathedral traverse in the Tetons. 6hrs and change CTC..   mind blowing.  Obviously that doesn't happen without all the information available on the internet and modern scientific training.  so yes while the majority is  hang dogging and working sit starts there is a strong minority blowing the socks off what our generation and the generation before us accomplished...   Yes its hard to say that they are braver or more bold that Joe Fitch and Gen Denny forging into the unknown with limited water supply, no beta and  really crappy equipment but the skill level and boldness is still off the charts .   I see it at Lac Willoughby all the time. Yes the gear is light years better and makes the climbs easier and much safer than they were when I started out but the sheer numbers of folks on hard climbs is depressing...    in 1983 there would not have been this many folks at this entire venue as we see in a photo I took a few days ago of just two climbs  20 below and Glass Menagerie..  and the climbers are all aiming for the hardest lines keeping it 5+   How about the recent solo of Reality Bath...