Beartooth Alpine picks

Scott Biegert wrote:

maybe I am doing it wrong.

Scott Biegert wrote:

  I have tried different pick angles on the Ice Hawks but inevitably end up with a beaked pick. Love the performance when I first get out, but by the end of the day climbing I am left umderwhelmed.  Today was thick water ice, it might me that I was to excited and broke them out early season and messed up the geometry from the start. I sharpen in the same fashion as I have the camp picks, so maybe I am doing it wrong. I will say that the bottom teeth don't seem to bite into the hard ice as well as the stock picks, could be that the ice hawk is thinner and just has less surface area. I might be switching back to camp picks for the time being and possibly buying a set of master scratchers later on to give them a try since that seems to be what every one is happy with. Anyone else running Ice hawks on X-dreams, how have yours held up?

When you say you've tried "different pick angles on the Ice Hawks" do you mean you're changing the "setting" on the X-Dream handle from ice to dry? It seems you've hit a lot of rock with these 2mm picks and/or aggressively filed all the way back to the first tooth. Just curious how many days on these? My X-Dream/Ice Hawk set up have held up well and I've avoided beaking them but I've only used them selectively on lines with consistent, thick ice - ie. more of a "specific use" pick. 

I’m at about 50 pitches on these. (Xdream, dry-setting). Tapped them on rock early and that eliminated the ultra point, but they’re still lasers after removing the slight beak. I don’t know what kind of ice you’re hitting that took you back past the first tooth already.

If you feel unsatisfied with a product maybe try offering constructive feedback opposed to bashing. Not every single day out needs a MP thread. 

I’m stoked on my new picks and I think most new folks will be too. If you’re not, there are plenty of other options out there for you. How about we try to help make progress instead of being petty on Internet forums 

It’s not about being petty and I’m not interested in shitting on Beartooth. I think it’s awesome climbers from the States are making some cool shit, hopefully something I would someday buy.

But what I’m not interested in is being overtly misled about the product’s characteristics and I can only imagine others who dropped $200 on their purchase that didn’t live up to the hype might have been better served if the marketing claims were different.

All these first time buyers were the guinea pigs, so here’s the constructive criticism I was trying to convey: maybe some more discretion about them being reserved for highly specialized use cases (just because it works great for Charlie or another climbers style doesn’t mean it translates universally) and refined climbing technique would’ve kept beginners away from bashing these into rocks and realizing they aren’t actually more durable and they would’ve just stuck with cheaper stock picks.

Beyond that, claiming they’re better than Krukonogi and throwing other brands under the bus without a measurable basis was just a poor comparison and in bad taste in the first place. Maybe you think I’m the one being petty but y’all started off on the wrong foot in my opinion.

I don’t really care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me, (and especially not interested if you make this about me personally). Just posting my own opinion because internet. You’re entitled to yours as I am mine. I’m not claiming to be an expert, just someone who spends an unnecessary amount of money on climbing gear, and I value good information over bad information.

Christian Donkey wrote:

But what I’m not interested in is being overtly misled about the product’s characteristics and I can only imagine others who dropped $200 on their purchase that didn’t live up to the hype might have been better served if the marketing claims were different.

All these first time buyers were the guinea pigs, so here’s the constructive criticism I was trying to convey: maybe some more discretion about them being reserved for highly specialized use cases (just because it works great for Charlie or another climbers style doesn’t mean it translates universally) and refined climbing technique would’ve kept beginners away from bashing these into rocks and realizing they aren’t actually more durable and they would’ve just stuck with cheaper stock picks.

100%. I feel like an issue here is that these things were promised to be the most durable picks out there. At least when I met Charlie and Paul that's what I remember them saying about the steel they are using. I can understand why someone like JJ is wondering what metal are they made out of - to understand what exactly makes them more durable. Someone like I, with pretty much zero care or understanding about different metals and how they compare to each other, only cares about one thing: are they more durable or less durable than BD/Petzl stock picks? If not as durable, is their performance so game changing that I am willing to close my eyes on durability? 

Due to these claims I purchased two Ice Hawks for $100 a pick. I do have access to about half off from petzl and BD, but wanted to support a small local brand, they are great guys overall. One of my picks lasted only couple pitches (1/5th of our climbing for that day) before it bent as if I did a full strength swing straight into rock. I did do couple thin top outs where I had to tap into thin ice and hit rock (it was a mix of snow over ice and rock). The force that was used was very mild, as I was tapping, not swinging. It was an insane bent for the force that went into it. I've only done that to a pick once in 12-13 years of ice climbing. It was pretty easy to bend it back, which I guess is no surprise if pick bends that hard when it hits rock mildly. So I was able to finish climbing that day. I also spent couple other days of climbing on one ice hawk (one that survived the first day) and one petzl purice. After a day of linking up Sorcerer/Hydrophobia in the ghost, where there was 0 rock anywhere, the other pick had a slight bent. Maybe I didn't notice it after the first day, but I do not remember it after first day of climbing? Ice hawks felt better overall, but not by so much that I want to risk climbing with something that seem to bend and mushroom so easily compared to all the other picks I have experience with. Charlie agreed to replace my picks with Master Scratchers, which is great. Hope they perform better, but I am not planning to use them for significant drytooling, especially when it comes to jamming them and loading from the side. It is a total N of 1 and maybe there was something way different about the pick that bent for me. 

Another thing I personally do not like about Ice Hawks is that they chose to add stein teeth to the top of the pick. From what I understand, they chose to do this to give a climber more traction if you want to use that side of the ice tool for walking up snow slopes. In my opinion, it only adds to difficulty of taking them out when climbing on featured, chandeliered etc. At least I had a couple instances where those teeth made it harder to remove the tool from its placement. I personally wouldn't feel any more or less secure with them providing traction for walking. That's what the spike is for, even without any spike, if you are using the tool purely for balance/support, those teeth will not make much difference. Climbing slabby or mostly featureless ice, it doesn't make much difference if those teeth are there or not, but I think they are more harmful than helpful, on a pick that's supposed to be made for pure ice climbing.

Sorry my review may sound negative, but that's just my experience and thoughts. I hope most reviews will be positive and I really love that these guys are trying to make something original. And it does stick a bit better than stock pick. Not sure about all the durability claims though. 

My understanding of BT's durability claim is more towards lifespan of the pick (ie "wear resistance over time - sharpening/filing") vs. the mushrooming or deformation of an ultra-thin tapered point at the very tip of the Ice Hawk. I snapped an entire tip off a Krukonogi of similarly thin profile moderately hitting rock only once. Would rather have a beak than snapped pick. I've climbed all day on a new Ice Hawk with a decent bird beak and didn't notice any drop in performance. Beartooth seems really open to constructive criticism and improving/evolving their product line and it's their first full year in business. Maybe give them time? I believe a non-Mohawk version will be available in the near future. They are also experimenting with additional thicknesses/metals/designs etc. and always seeking to improve. I'm psyched for future iterations and products from a U.S. based small company. 

I think people whining about the price being misleading is silly too. You are an ice climber, you have thousands of dollars of gear. Tell me anyone in this forum solely shops for used second hand clearance gear. To the one guy out there climbing on first gen X all mtns, using pre crank BD turbos, who saved up and bought these and felt they didn't live up to expectations, yeah that's a bummer. To anyone else, how much Arcteryx and Patagonia do you have? $200 is a drop in the bucket for ice climbers. 

Pat Marrinan wrote:

I think people whining about the price being misleading is silly too. You are an ice climber, you have thousands of dollars of gear. Tell me anyone in this forum solely shops for used second hand clearance gear. To the one guy out there climbing on first gen X all mtns, using pre crank BD turbos, who saved up and bought these and felt they didn't live up to expectations, yeah that's a bummer. To anyone else, how much Arcteryx and Patagonia do you have? $200 is a drop in the bucket for ice climbers. 

$200 is very reasonable if the quality matches the price. 

Jedrzej Jablonski wrote:

krukonogi picks can do things petzl picks will never do (like give you a weight bearing placement after you scratch ice once or twice). If you resharpened petzl picks to do the same they would not last a single swing.

I have no clue what this means, can anyone help? 

What do you even mean by "Scratch ice"? like literally make a scratch mark in ice? why would that cause the picks to be unable to bear weight?

Ellen S wrote:

I have no clue what this means, can anyone help? 

What do you even mean by "Scratch ice"? like literally make a scratch mark in ice? why would that cause the picks to be unable to bear weight?

What you're looking for starts around the 3 min mark: Stas Beskin Scratching

Petzl picks aren't sharp enough to do this. If you filed them to get them that sharp, the metal Petzl uses would blunt as soon as you had to swing at something. 

NateC wrote:

What you're looking for starts around the 3 min mark: Stas Beskin Scratching

Petzl picks aren't sharp enough to do this. If you filed them to get them that sharp, the metal Petzl uses would blunt as soon as you had to swing at something. 

mind blown!!! that is insane! 

  I have figured I would share what I have determined to be my mistake with ice hawk picks. Upon intitial bird beak I filed in same fashion as I have always done with good results. File bottom to make flat, than file each bevel till I get perfect v point. That was were I made error in my opinion, super sharp point but beaked with every outing. This resulted in rapid deterioration of my picks. I recently just sharpened by flattening bottom, touching up bevels. Does not come to a perfect v but a fairly sharp point that climbs ice acceptionally well but retains durability. Also noted that X-dreams the dry setting seams more secure to me than ice setting. Swing and ergonomics also better suit my style.

Something folks could consider from the knife and wood chisel world is using a micro bevel. It’s common on a lot of knives but especially deba and honesuki knives which are used to butcher fish and chickens respectively so they need to stand up to hitting bones. This would mean doing what Scott describes above, but then finishing just the very edge to a less acute sharp point. It *should* allow for a sharp but more resilient edge. 

The document below has been referred to in several previous threads on Mountain Project regarding the optimal way to sharpen ice tool picks. Petzl does not recommend sharpening picks to get a "perfect V point".

Performance on ice in very cold conditions was excellent. Easy sticks! The very sharp point bit into the ice exceptionally well when lightly tapping in.

but after just one gentle tap on rock through thin ice when topping a route out, one of the picks beaked and the other’s tip broke off.

performance remained pretty good the rest if the day but certainly not as good as new. 

after sharpening the performance felt good, but still not as good as they were new. 

Has anyone tried building pick tips back? I’m thinking tig S7 could be a good candidate for adding material instead of filing back. Any machinists please chime in- I’m an amateur smith and welder and dabble in metallurgy, so if anyone has more info that would be great.

 If anyone has completely dead pick heads that would otherwise be junked, I’d be happy to add some more material onto the ends and get them back to ya- just pay shipping. With the caveat that this would be completely experimental and could result in worse performance or catastrophic failure.

Also why it IS good to know the specific alloy- imho should not be confidential. 

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Is this an X-Dream thing?  Am I just a doofus?  I use the stock Grivel forged "Ice Vario" picks for everything with both of my tools (Tech Machine and North Machine) and they seem fine for everything from snow climbing to M7, and they easily last more than a full season.  Am I missing something?  Would I magically climb WI6 and M10 if I bought $100 picks?

Hey buddy. It is an X-Dream thing because the Cassin picks are ridiculously soft! Grivel and Petzl picks are great and there's no reason to look into aftermarket options with those tools.

Yeah the Xdream stock picks are too soft, but my favorite aftermarket picks, Krukonogi PX0 and 00, don't have hammers so I was switching picks a bunch and that got me excited for Master Scratchers. I thought I could have a pick that climbed ice almost as good and have a hammer.

I haven't used the Camp stock picks in years but it doesn't seem that the Beartooths are much more durable, probably as equally (not) "long lasting." After 12-15 days on Beartooths, they are toast. They blunt so quickly hitting any rock, even with minimal filing to remove the beaks, the tips of my picks are becoming too high for great sticks anymore. I don't care what metal they use, it is way softer than Kruk's, Sport-Steinle's, or Kuznia's steel.

I am somewhat surprised that I haven't seen more people commenting on the fact that the top bevel stops well short of the tool head and that the picks have large "stein / caning teeth" place forward of the tool head.

Are people not bothered by additional difficulty these design choices create when cleaning? or is everyone using pick weights as stoppers?

Karl Henize wrote:

I am somewhat surprised that I haven't seen more people commenting on the fact that the top bevel stops well short of the tool head and that the picks have large "stein / caning teeth" place forward of the tool head.

Are people not bothered by additional difficulty these design choices create when cleaning? or is everyone using pick weights as stoppers?

Dude how hard are you driving your tools? I can’t think of a time I’ve buried picks to the tool head on any pick (in anything hard enough to require “cleaning”).