Gauging New Guidebook Interest

EDIT: The guidebook is released! Check the 2nd page for details on how to order.

Hey Folks,

Me again - if you're even remotely active on the CO MP forums, you've seen me make a comment or thread or something as it relates to "Wonderland", a new region in the South Platte. I've been developing the area and working on a guidebook for it for the past few years and am finally at a place where I'm close (maybe using this term loosely) to publishing it. I'm planning on self-publishing, and distributing the guidebook locally, so I'm trying to gauge interest in the guide so I can get an estimate of how many copies to order so I don't have a ton of books sitting around.

Important things first: Google Interest Form Link: HERE!

Some notes:

• Guidebook will have 170+ roped routes (even a couple drytool routes) and a few dozen boulder problems totaling over 200 previously undocumented climbs
  • Here is the MP listing - it is currently being reorganized. There's very few route details (intentionally) but there's a lot of pics and relevant GPS information so you can see where this area is in relation to you
• If you haven't been to the region, there's quite a bit of free camping, mountain biking, and other existing climbing nearby and it's an awesome weekend/short trip location. I've heard the Platte in general considered to be CO's version of Tahoe and I have to agree - a ton of rock in a huge area, with a LOT of choss but also some stellar pockets here and there - a veritable playground
• Did my best to make this colorblind friendly and checked with a few folks to see how well it worked for their various forms of it. No promises, but intentional decisions were made on that front
• Physical Copies:
  • Cost will likely be around $20
    • Printing Cost is probably going to be around $10 - close to 100 pages, color guidebook
    • Remaining revenue will be put into a common fund for area developers to use to install new routes and maintain existing routes
      • 100% of revenue will be using to recoup printing cost, once recouped, 100% of revenue will go to the fund. I'd say there will be an application process for using the fund but that process is probably just gonna be texting/emailing me with what you want to do and what you need and me letting you know if the funds are available or not.
      • This part of the Platte (as is true for most of the Platte) is NOT covered by an LCO. While the ASCA has been a great partner in getting replacement hardware (only have 20 or so bolts to replace in the Wonderland region until every single bolt/hanger) is stainless, this provides a bit of financial support to ensure it's a well-cared for area.
• Digital Copies:
  • Free with proof of a donation of $15 or more to one of the following organizations
    • ASCA
    • PPCA
    • Crux Wilderness Therapy
    • Possibly the BCC
  • You will simply get a PDF. I will not be updating the PDF, it should mirror the hard copy
  • Future state I will be working with GunksApp to release an official digital version that will have integrated GPX info, individual route photos, the whole nine. That's gonna take quite a bit, but wouldn't want to you feel mislead not knowing this is in the pipeline. You will not get a free copy of the digital PDF regardless of what purchases you have made prior to this.
• About Wonderland
  • A collection of all of the types of climbing you find in the platte - friction slab, crack climbing, thin technical face, overhanging jug hauls, featured granitic gneiss, etc (recommend checking out the photos in the above linked Mountain Project listing to see)
  • Climbs up to 3 pitches long, from 5.4 to 5.13 (and a few open projects for the crushers among us), from V-Easy to V11 (ditto, easily potential well into the double digits here)
  • Most approaches are 20-30 minutes long, the parking is roughly an hour car-to-car from West Denver/Lakewood
  • Generally more modern bolting than most of the Platte (though we still have our mental test pieces as well)
  • Still a ton of room for more development (if you're going to get involved, please camo your hardware and always use stainless bolts + hangers as per the South Platte Ranger District's Climbing Management Plan).

Lastly: A screenshot example from the guidebook so you can see what it looks like (pls go light on the typos I haven't done my proofreading review yet).

Looks good! I’d buy a print guidebook if it’s NOT printed in China.

Btw what’s “LCO?”

George Bracksieck wrote:

Looks good! I’d buy a print guidebook if it’s NOT printed in China.

Btw what’s “LCO?”

Local climbing organization e.g. BCC, PPCA, CCC, etc

Looks great, hopefully I can snag one the next time I’m in the lower! 

The back and forth and value add to porting the guidebook into GunskApp, or whatever, is not going to be worth it. IMO all the guidebook apps suck. I am skeptical that they provide more value than a PDF. Having a Google Maps "Map", an ESRI published map, or what I attempted to do ( vedauwoobouldering.com/) is good enough. The value add of the apps is to provide GPS coords on the phone. But most people already have a mapping app like OnX, Gaia, whatever. So it's easy for someone to just add a couple of gps points from the digital guidebook instead of downloading a climbing app. I am of the opinion that it's better to update the digital guidebook. I don't think most people have even used the interactive map I have on my site. I spent quite a bit of time on making detailed maps within the guidebook and that seems to be what people like. Having GPS coords for each boulder is helpful. Don't waste your time on trying to support an app that noone uses and will just be a pain in your ass over time. 

I released my guidebook for free and I've only done it digital. Maybe one or two people have mentioned wanting a paper version (out of 20 or so people that I've talked to). I'm not convinced that a 100page guidebook is worth your time. Maybe just having a map printout for the areas with some detailed maps in there would be better? 

Just some things I thought about. At some point I wanted to focus on quality and the easiest way to do that was to not worry about some of the bells and whistles that come with some guidebooks. 

Hey John, thanks for sharing your opinion—different strokes for different folks. It sounds like you and I have different goals and experiences regarding documenting climbing areas and using climbing apps. I hope your system continues to work for you and the folks who use it

When I joined Tal for a day climbing new routes he had developed in Wonderland, I was worried he would be a young punk or hipster. It wasn't the case at all! I found Tal to be a true student of the sport, very respectful of its history, and intent on developing routes that would best serve the general community (you can't satisfy everyone, of course). He shared a draft PDF of his guidebook with me, and I found it well laid out and informative. I do have concerns about this guidebook bringing crowds to the S. Platte, but so it goes.

Jonathan S wrote:

When I joined Tal for a day climbing new routes he had developed in Wonderland, I was worried he would be a young punk or hipster. It wasn't the case at all! I found Tal to be a true student of the sport, very respectful of its history, and intent on developing routes that would best serve the general community (you can't satisfy everyone, of course). He shared a draft PDF of his guidebook with me, and I found it well laid out and informative. I do have concerns about this guidebook bringing crowds to the S. Platte, but so it goes.

Jonathan! Thanks for the kind words - I’ve had a few folks “gently question” the grade on Man-Eater and I reference you on it and your remarks often, and it’s officially in the guidebook as its proper grade of “5.Fun”. Hope you choose to make some return trips in the future! I’ve added around close to 50 routes in wonderland alone since the day we got out together. 

Tal M wrote:

Jonathan! Thanks for the kind words - I’ve had a few folks “gently question” the grade on Man-Eater and I reference you on it and your remarks often, and it’s officially in the guidebook as its proper grade of “5.Fun”. Hope you choose to make some return trips in the future! I’ve added around close to 50 routes in wonderland alone since the day we got out together. 

I'm curious what I said about Man-Eater that stuck with you. By rating it 5.Fun, do you mean it is just really hard to determine a rating? That would make sense. Although it isn't easy, it is fun!

Since we climbed together, I took kids out to Cafe Wonderland. We had a great time.

Tal, I have roots in south Denver and travel there often. I’d definitely buy a hard copy if available. 

I would definitely buy a hard copy. I prefer hard copies of guidebooks (along with most of the people I climb with). Something about staring at my phone trying to read a PDF while I'm at the crag just doesn't sit right. It's also just nice to have a collection of guides to lend friends or have out in the living room. Cheers to getting after it Tal!

Jonathan S wrote:

I'm curious what I said about Man-Eater that stuck with you. By rating it 5.Fun, do you mean it is just really hard to determine a rating? That would make sense. Although it isn't easy, it is fun!

Since we climbed together, I took kids out to Cafe Wonderland. We had a great time.

I think just the idea that it's tough to grade but you felt you were a low 5.10 climber and were able to get it clean. I think you said something like "realistically, if you own the gear to protect it, you should climb it, regardless of what the grade is" and that's how I've talked about it since.

Glad you guys made it out! It's great season now - have been spending a lot of time at Pleasure Dome, putting in some quality new moderate single and multipitch lines. Hopefully we continue to have a great climbing winter!

Tal M wrote:

I think just the idea that it's tough to grade but you felt you were a low 5.10 climber and were able to get it clean. I think you said something like "realistically, if you own the gear to protect it, you should climb it, regardless of what the grade is" and that's how I've talked about it sense.

Glad you guys made it out! It's great season now - have been spending a lot of time at Pleasure Dome, putting in some quality new moderate single and multipitch lines. Hopefully we continue to have a great climbing winter!

Is it fairly climbable in the winter? I'd be interested in maybe checking it out soon! 

Looks cool, I love something about a physical guide....maybe it stirs memories of the first time I got my hands on a guidebook and it opened up so many possibilities.  Unless it's a modern-day sport crag, I don't think you have to worry about crowds.  There are so many high quality Splatte areas that rarely see visitors.

Hell yeah I want a print copy.  I find it easier both  to get an overall sense of a new area and to peruse idly for next ambitions / develop personal tick lists for upcoming visits using a physical guidebook.  Maybe it’s the same reason I use Google Calendar on my phone day-to-day for appointments but still use a paper wall calendar to set plans across a whole season.  And my shelves of guidebooks always make me smile.  They become like old friends.  And in this case, y’ know, my name in print and all… 

I would get a copy.

If you need an extra set of eyes to proof read, I'm happy to help. Either way I'd buy a dead tree version.

I'd love to check out the area, would totally get a copy!

I’m, of course, down for a copy! 

I’d for sure buy a copy as I’ve heard about the wonderland and have been itching to check it out. 

Tal, looks like a great book.  I'd buy one (hard copy).  

Just so you can edit before going to print, in the "Ghost Town Crag" page you shared, it looks like there's a mix up in the blue/pink color coding between the route description and the route image.  

Also, thanks for all your hard work developing, equipping, cataloging, and publishing this area!