Gauging New Guidebook Interest

Kevin R wrote:

Tal, looks like a great book.  I'd buy one (hard copy).  

Just so you can edit before going to print, in the "Ghost Town Crag" page you shared, it looks like there's a mix up in the blue/pink color coding between the route description and the route image.  

Also, thanks for all your hard work developing, equipping, cataloging, and publishing this area!

Thanks Kevin! Yeah we went back and forth between 11+ and 12- about a million times on that route - I ended up catching that mistake a few weeks ago but much obliged.

After a flurry of activity in the last couple of weeks, I actually finished the addition of content to the guidebook last night (well, technically this morning). Now I’m just doing a deep proofread and format check and then will start the process of getting an ISBN and the book printed. I’m not sure how long that process will take, hopefully not that long, but I’ll check back in when I have some estimates. Appears we’ll be at around 300 total climbs in the book with somewhere around 190 roped routes and over 100 boulder problems, but again I’ll post the exact details in a later update 

Ok following up here: Looking for 1 or 2 people to help proofread. Let me know if you're interested - would like to get any feedback by end of week (2/9). You get at least a free digital copy of the guidebook for your troubles.

Looking for serious offers only - I've had quite a few dozen people extend offers to help in the past and around 90% of them fell through - I'm in the home stretch here, please god help me cross the finish line. Please send me a message through MP instead of commenting interest here.

Edit: All squared away on the proofreading offers, thanks folks!

Ok some stats (rushed, may be off or not add up):

188 roped lines: 5.7 and Below: 43, 5.8/9: 47, 5.10: 47, 5.11: 27, 5.12: 13, 5.13: 1, Open Projects: 3, Miscellaneous (Dry Tool, 5.fun, etc): 4, Closed Projects: 3

103 boulder problems: V1 and Below: 38, V2/3: 26, V4/5: 17, V6/7: 9, V8/9: 3, Projects: 10

Total pages (including indices, intro, etc etc): 100 exactly

If you guys have any preliminary questions about the guide, feel free to drop it in here and I can answer.

I would buy this guidebook even if I didn't have much interest in the actual area, simply just because you accept donation as payment, i want to donate to those orgs regardless, so basically it cost me $0.

Even if you only accept actual payment to yourself, a PDF is still a lot better than a paper guidebook, because
1) Then the cost to you is less so the price to me is less.
2) The book is always with me whenever I need it.
Wish more guidebook authors took either or both of these strategies (donation or PDF purchase option)

Ellen S wrote:

I would buy this guidebook even if I didn't have much interest in the actual area, simply just because you accept donation as payment, i want to donate to those orgs regardless, so basically it cost me $0.

Just hoping to move the needle on some folks who might be sitting on the fence about donating! 

That being said, come check it out anyways! There's 2 drytool lines (though those are on MP) and even a short WI2 that should be in for another month or two. Will likely do a bit of hunting around and see if I can find any other flows this weekend.

Matt S wrote:

I would definitely buy a hard copy. I prefer hard copies of guidebooks (along with most of the people I climb with). Something about staring at my phone trying to read a PDF while I'm at the crag just doesn't sit right. It's also just nice to have a collection of guides to lend friends or have out in the living room. Cheers to getting after it Tal!

I would definitely buy a hard copy, and I second the preference for such not only while at the crag, but around the house as well. We have to be on our phones enough as it is, having something tangible is really nice. I’m generally much more awe inspired by flipping through a guidebook vs scrolling digitally.

ps, just started using mp forums for the first time, and am seeing your name a lot. I’ve really liked what I’ve seen/read so far, and want to thank you for your contributions. Looking forward to learning more about them and you, and excited to hear more about this book

The day is finally here, the Wonderland Guidebook is now complete and is literally off to the printers. Physical copies will likely be more readily available in March (a small, sample order was just placed, so once those are validated, a larger run will be ordered), but digital copies are effectively good-to-go now. Thanks to the folks who helped out with final checks/proofreading (and apologies in advance for any mistakes still present).

Order Form: https://forms.gle/Ew3tWJSCdoRZkTLRA

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT MAKE A DONATION/ATTEMPT TO PAY ME BEFORE I REACH OUT TO YOU.

PHYSICAL COPIES: Cost is $21.50 (cost of printing/shipping/taxes [$11.50] + $10, Printed in the USA. Add on shipping cost if you can't pick it up locally in Denver - I think media mail is around $5, so $26.50 total). The $10 profit will go to a common hardware fund that is used to add new routes/improve or replace hardware on existing routes around Wonderland. If you would like to access this common hardware fund, or contribute additionally directly to it, please reach out to me.

DIGITAL COPIES: Free with proof of a donation of $15 or more to one of: ASCA, BCC, PPCA, or Crux Wilderness Therapy. This must be a unique donation, i.e. you cannot use your yearly membership renewal fee as a donation (though you may add this amount to your renewal fee so you don't need to do two transactions if it's that time of year). If you would instead like to donate to a different organization, please shoot me a message about the org. Donation proof should include "Wonderland" somewhere in it. Please Note: The digital copy of the guidebook will not receive updates beyond the initial release, it is "static" much like a physical copy would be.

FAQ:

Q: What is Wonderland?

A: Wonderland is the name given by Jay Vonesh to the area between Pine and Bailey, CO (East to West), between the North Fork of the South Platte River and Lake Wellington Road (North to South). It is lightly covered in Haas's South Platte Climbing: The Northern Volume (pg. 52-53). In the last 3 years, roughly 185 new roped routes have gone up in the area. Additionally, it's been a local bouldering spot for decades likely, and this book also has 100+ boulder problems documented, with potential for many, many hundreds more in the region (but I'm not much of a boulderer). Parking is generally roughly an hour car-to-car from west Denver, and approaches vary from 5 to 70 minutes, with most settling in around 20-30 minutes. This area hosts 4-season climbing opportunities (even a small, consistent ice flow and a couple of dry tool lines), and introduces some awesome hangs to the Platte climbing scene.

Q: Does this guidebook cover XYZ?

A: Probably not. It only includes formations in that area. The complete list of named formations includes: Tiger Stripe Slab, Seitan Slab, Seasoned Slab, Improbable Wall, Boogie Water Wall, Man-Eater Wall, Cafe Wonderland, Buckaroo Slabs, Crescendo Wall, Little Tiger Stripe, Howdy Hideout, Pleasure Dome, Narrow Gauge Slabs, Bachelor Party Crag, Slacker Dome, Ghost Town Crag, Almost Heaven, Puff's Lair, Walls of Honah Lee, Palette Wall, The Hotel Room, Bath House, Pebble Beach, Dental Dome, and the Main Castle View Crag. Additionally, bouldering areas covered include The Sharp Instruments, plus The Medical Pavilion, The Morph Sector, Puff's Boulders, Clearing Boulders, The North Sextant, and the Drainage Boulders - all after the "plus" being contained within the "Forest Boulders". For transparency, a large majority of the bouldering in the guidebook has been posted to MP by me in the last few weeks. Like I said, I'm not much of a boulderer, so I posted it in hopes of drumming up some interest so others take the torch to put up some more blocks.

The guidebook is roughly 100 pages long, with ~190 roped climbs, ~105 boulder problems, copious action shots, a few love letters, color-blind-minded color coding, a few to-do style hit lists, and indices.

Q: Will you be posting this area to MountainProject?

A: No. I imagine (begrudgingly) it will eventually start to creep its way onto this site, and as a result, I recently had the help of Monty to re-organize the area to match how it is documented in the guide. However, this area hasn't been posted to MP for two reasons:

1. The climbs are very new. I would wager fewer than a dozen routes have seen double-digit or more ascents. The bulk majority of them have likely only seen ascents by the FA party. Due to this inherent additional risk/potential less clean experience courtesy of the lack of traffic, it didn't feel like MP would be a good avenue for it.
2. This area is a wild area. MountainProject has a habit of newly posted areas being hit with immediate, large spikes in traffic. In order to mitigate the impact, I kept it off. The area has a really special character that will inevitably change moving forward regardless, but slowing that process so that it can hopefully be done thoughtfully and sustainably is the goal.

Q: What sort of climbing is in Wonderland?

A: A big mix. There's good old-fashioned runout friction slab, well-protected, featured face climbing, overhanging jug hauls, multi-pitch, crack, roofs, etc. It truly is a collection of the varieties of climbing found in the surrounding regions. The guidebook covers established climbing 5.3-5.13- and V-Easy-V9 with some open projects for those hardbodies among us. I, and others, have posted a lot of photos of formations, action shots, and even a few short films to the Wonderland listing on MP - take a look at that to get a better understanding of the types of climbing in the region.

Q: What should I know about this book?

A: There are two main decisions made in this book that might rile some folks up. 

Firstly, there are no star ratings. As I said, most routes have seen single-digit ascents. I know star ratings often drive traffic around an area, and making decisions that might permanently determine traffic patterns and which climbs actually get repeated for the region felt unwise. Similarly, I know many folks have different tastes in climbing than I do, and my threshold for choss/lichen/etc is different from many folks, so they would have been garbage anyway. Instead, there are a few to-do style hit lists, and climbs are denoted on whether or not they're on one.

Secondly, there are no letter grades, just -/even/+. For similar reasons, there's no such thing as a consensus out here. Expect sandbags, featherbags, and everything in between (which, I guess, would just be accurate grading). Climbs have largely been equipped to be safe for leaders vaguely at the grade (with notable exceptions that are called out), so you're encouraged to try anything that catches your attention. Also, most stuff has pretty reasonable top access (either a direct walk-up or a rap into the anchor), so you can almost always mitigate risk pretty substantially.

Q: How excited should I be about this?

A: Probably temper your expectations. This place is unbelievably special to me, but I recognize that this is not a world-class climbing destination. It hosts a lot of 1-to-3-star climbs, with the occasional outlier here or there. But, like I said - trails are bad, climbs aren't spectacularly clean, there's a lot of slab/technical face climbing which is generally an acquired taste, etc. I encourage anyone on MP who has been out there to comment in here and give your honest good/bad/ugly feedback of the area so folks have a general idea of what they're getting into - but the only way you'll ever know for sure yourself is to get out there!

Q: Is development still ongoing?

A: This guide is literally already out-of-date. We're averaging over 1 new route/week since development started. There's still a ton of potential out there for those who want to get involved, and the real shame about publishing this guide is I'm finally going to have to start actually using red tags. If you see a red-tagged route, please respect it, as it is very likely there for safety concerns. And if you see anyone out there working, make sure they know you're there so we don't accidentally drop a block down onto you. 

Q: Do you have any clue what is going on/what you're doing?

A: Genuinely no, I'm just winging all of this, and would appreciate any patience and grace you can offer. Trust me, I want to mess this up far less than you want me to.

Q: Can I hire you?

A: Wow, what a coincidence that you asked! I did indeed do a bit of a radical sabbatical in order to focus on developing this area and completing this guidebook and am very actively looking for work again. If you, your organization, or someone you know has any need for a data professional (previous role was a Director of an analytics team at a major telecom), please send me a message. I've also worked in engineering (NASA, GE Renewables, Duke Energy) and worked construction (general contracting) to pay my way through college. Hit my line!

I started climbing back in the mid 90s so paper guidebooks were the only option.  I still prefer them today because I enjoy thumbing through the pages and planning trips to areas I’ve never been before.  

So $36.50 if you're not in Denver?

Dude I am unbelievably proud of you for this effort. Sincerely the amount of work you’ve put in over the years developing this area and now publishing a book on it blows anything I’ve even attempted out of the water. I seriously am just gushing with admiration and pride for what you’ve done here what an amazing lifetime accomplishment and permanent legacy to leave the world. So so proud.

Tal is my younger brother and instead of texting this I wanted to share it publicly (because I’m so proud!!) he’s put in thousands and thousands of his own dollars to develop this area and get this guide together. Buy this book and check the area out you won’t regret it!

CO_Michael wrote:

So $36.50 if you're not in Denver?

26.50 - the 11.50 + 10 + 5

Tanner - that means the world! So stoked you got to come be a part of it

I got my digital copy yesterday.  Humor and stoke practically leap off the pages - I’m really looking forward to holding the paper copy!

Thanks for the feedback Lee!

To anyone who ordered a physical copy, I'll be waiting until I receive the proof copies of the guidebook and verify things are good to go before reaching out - I don't want to take anyone's money until I have a verified path forward towards delivering you what you ordered.

Interested

Wonderland is a pretty remarkable area. The volume and variety of climbs, the dispersed natural feel, and ability to hop crag to crag with a nice strolls through the forest all make it special. While the guidebook is beautiful, and will allow folks to find and enjoy many great little crags spread throughout this zone, I'm a little sad that it will move into full visibility for the masses. Thankfully, the lack of road side crags will help keep down the heard, and preserve some of the special wild feel. 

Tal also deserves plenty of praise for this area the routes, and now the guidebook. While I'd always rather give him grief (deserved or not), I have tremendous admiration for what he helped create, and for bringing together something special in this area. The number of hours he has spent out there finding crags, and putting up routes is remarkable, as is the amount of money he has spent on quality hardware to open up hundreds of routes. The guidebook for those who havent seen it yet is beautiful, fun, and informative. Beyond all that, rather than trying to possess the area he found and put so much into, fro the bigger Tal has been inviting folks out, sharing beta, and mentoring newer developers. Great work Tal! 

Everyone’s kind words have really meant a ton, and I can’t wait to get the physical copies in hands. Speaking of: finally got confirmation from the printer that I’ll have a few proof copies around the end of Feb. I took a couple of risks on layout that I genuinely can’t guarantee will pay off until I have a physical copy, so once I get those, if all is well I’ll start reaching out to folks for payment on physical copies.

Additionally, we’ll be out there climbing this Sunday if anyone would like to join. 3 formations all pretty close with roughly 25 routes between them between 5.6-5.12, with the majority being 5.10 or 11. Trad, sport, mixed, easy TR access - if you wanna join, shoot me a message! Would be happy to show folks around.

Tal, your guidebook is wonderful and can’t wait to have a physical copy. Thank you for sharing an advanced copy, we had a wonderful day of climbing in the area and can’t wait to get back there soon.

shameless video plug for the route “Double Your Pleasure” located in the Pleasure Dome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-dM71PdEUw

Hey folks! Got the proof copies in and they look good, so I’ll start reaching out to those who are looking for a physical copy and start taking payments - thanks for everyone’s patience!

Also tested shipping today and $5 is indeed the price there

Tal, Congratulations, the book looks great!

Do you plan to sell them at Neptune, Bent Gate, Mountain Chalet, etc?

sandrock wrote:

Do you plan to sell them at Neptune, Bent Gate, Mountain Chalet, etc?

If they’ll take them! Have reached out to various places and gotten radio silence back thus far, so if you want to see them there, feel free to talk to them about it next time you’re in!