Posting projects to MP

What are y’all’s thoughts? Does it depend on if it’s open vs closed? Should the folks who equipped them be the only ones to post them? How about boulders - never post? Only post if it’s been “proofed” (I.e. every move has been done)?

Probably my spiciest climbing opinion: Open vs closed is a ridiculous concept for bouldering and bolted sport. Take your hangers with you if you don't want someone hopping on a climb in a public area.

I only post something if I know the route developers and/or proofed it myself. There are quite a few areas here in Colorado that are "guidebook gatekeeped." These are confusing for sure and have lead many up a line they have no business pulling on. These crags have tons of new climbs at them not on MP, but have guidebooks you can't purchase anymore or are a decade out of date.

Jeremiah Whitewrote:

Probably my spiciest climbing opinion: Open vs closed is a ridiculous concept for bouldering and bolted sport. Take your hangers with you if you don't want someone hopping on a climb in a public area.

I only post something if I know the route developers and/or proofed it myself. There are quite a few areas here in Colorado that are "guidebook gatekeeped." These are confusing for sure and have lead many up a line they have no business pulling on. These crags have tons of new climbs at them not on MP, but have guidebooks you can't purchase anymore or are a decade out of date.

Took exactly 2 comments for this thread to get a tangent that’s likely going to derail the whole thing.

Ill be clear that the intent of this thread was not to hash out whether red tagging a route so you can send is good form or not and the ethics around it, or if it’s the people who red tag a route or the people who feel entitled to climb a red tagged route that are selfish egomaniacs. But I will say, if you’re looking at a red tagged route that is likely below 5.13, there’s a very high chance it’s red tagged due to safety reasons (needs cleaning, loose blocks, glue is drying, bolts are bad/missing, bolts are in bad rock, etc) and not projecting reasons.

FWIW not sure “closed projects” is a concept in bouldering or trad lines

Tal Mwrote:

Took exactly 2 comments for this thread to get a tangent that’s likely going to derail the whole thing.

Fair enough, I'll reply only to this. If it's not in a Guidebook that can be purchased and it's in a public area, I think it's fair game to post it to MP.

Edit: With the exception of a large area that's being developed with a (release date announced) forthcoming guidebook. 

I think a reasonable amount or time should be given to someone with a “red tagged” route to project it. That is the long standing ethic that has been in place for as long as I can remember. What a reasonable amount of time is, is obviously subjective. I think a full season should be sufficient. It takes a lot of time and effort to clean, bolt or prepare a route. So it’s a courtesy which should be honored. At least to a certain point. This used to not really be an issue. But the climbing community used to be a lot smaller and people used to be a lot less self centered before the advent of social media. 

T Taylor wrote:

IMO if the route is on an established wall people frequent it should be posted. It will be confusing if it isn’t listed open/closed because people figureout routes by going left to right and counting.

I agree with PP Lovr 

actually i change my mind projects shouldnt be shared under any circumstances 

Trevr Taylrwrote:

actually i change my mind projects shouldnt be shared under any circumstances 

i think if it is on public property and a person has actually climbed the route it should be fair game for them to post it.  i would avoid posting closed projects as it is just basically an invitation to get butt-hurt when someone else sends the route first.

Question....

i think if it is on public property and a person has actually climbed the route it should be fair game for them to post it.

If the person sent it, its not a project anymore, is it?

If the person creating the project wants to post it, she should. No one else has any right or business adding her project or her subsequent route, to this or any other online database.

It makes perfect sense to post projects at high density crags. Having projects posted simply avoids confusion when navigating the crag. They can be posted as “closed project/open project/abandoned project” or just simply, “project.”  

Just a couple of weeks ago I almost got on an unlisted abandoned project by mistake. Not the end of the world, but annoying nonetheless, especially as I would have ended up wasting time looking for nonexistent beta and then stick clipping my fat ass up the thing to get my draws down.

I think it all just goes back to having some basic respect for fellow climbers. If it’s a project, give the person working on it some time to complete it, name it, give it a grade etc. What purpose does it serve to post someone’s project online other than to show the world what an egotistical dick you can be? Once it’s done though, if it’s public property and you got the correct beta, it’s fair game.

If it’s a project area, then it depends. There’s too many variables to hash out on a forum. Again, just go back to having some respect. Think of it like this. If you did a write up of the area and were having a beer and sitting across from the people who are doing all the work, would you look them in the eye right there and push submit? If not, then there’s probably your answer.

I’ve had the privilege over the years to be part of, or involved in a lot of new areas. A lot of inside knowledge about various routes, projects and even some double top secret areas. And I’ve been the one who posted areas I probably shouldn’t have. And I’ve been the one to chop bolts because they didn’t fit into whatever vision I had for whatever reason for that matter. In the end though, I was the one who ended up being the a-hole. Because whether I was right or wrong, justified or not, didn’t really matter one damn bit. I never gave them the basic respect as a fellow human being they deserved, and it caused feelings to be hurt and anger to be had over something that probably could have been solved by having a simple conversation.
The climbing community is still relatively a small one. Do you really want it to devolve into a free for all? What good will come of that? 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

I think it all just goes back to having some basic respect for fellow climbers. If it’s a project, give the person working on it some time to complete it, name it, give it a grade etc. What purpose does it serve to post someone’s project online other than to show the world what an egotistical dick you can be? Once it’s done though, if it’s public property and you got the correct beta, it’s fair game.

If it’s a project area, then it depends. There’s too many variables to hash out on a forum. Again, just go back to having some respect. Think of it like this. If you did a write up of the area and were having a beer and sitting across from the people who are doing all the work, would you look them in the eye right there and push submit? If not, then there’s probably your answer.

I’ve had the privilege over the years to be part of, or involved in a lot of new areas. A lot of inside knowledge about various routes, projects and even some double top secret areas. And I’ve been the one who posted areas I probably shouldn’t have. And I’ve been the one to chop bolts because they didn’t fit into whatever vision I had for whatever reason for that matter. In the end though, I was the one who ended up being the a-hole. Because whether I was right or wrong, justified or not, didn’t really matter one damn bit. I never gave them the basic respect as a fellow human being they deserved, and it caused feelings to be hurt and anger to be had over something that probably could have been solved by having a simple conversation.
The climbing community is still relatively a small one. Do you really want it to devolve into a free for all? What good will come of that? 

Just simply acknowledging that a project exists at an already posted area is not an ego trip, nor does it disrespect the developer. It certainly does not rob the developer of their hard work. It just makes navigation easier. I can think of one small wall that has an established .13-, a .14- and three abandoned/open projects that are fully equipped. It is on MP with the .13 posted and the .14 mentioned in the area description. Good luck to anyone trying to figure out what is what if not familiar with the area. 

I'd err on the side of don't post shit that's not yours, and if the "developer" (a shit term) is still working it in a reasonable timeframe, that posting someone else's efforts you're sort of a grade A dick. Wait until it lands here and add whatever comment you want, sorry you didn't find the line 

Frank Steinwrote:

Just simply acknowledging that a project exists at an already posted area is not an ego trip, nor does it disrespect the developer. It certainly does not rob the developer of their hard work. It just makes navigation easier. I can think of one small wall that has an established .13-, a .14- and three abandoned/open projects that are fully equipped. It is on MP with the .13 posted and the .14 mentioned in the area description. Good luck to anyone trying to figure out what is what if not familiar with the area. 

I get what you’re saying and for the most part I agree.  But there’s a difference between an abandoned project or long standing project and something that just went up and someone’s working on it. I post open projects all the time and I think those should be posted. But if someone’s currently working a route and trying to nab the FA because they found it, cleaned it, bolted it and put in all the hard work etc and you come along and give it a warrantless advertisement just because it’s there, then yes, that is a dick move. That being said, the person working on it should have it clearly red-tagged. That is a clear indication that the route is closed and nobody should be jumping on it anyway. The idea that one red-tagged project is going to cause such confusion and nobody is going to be able to make heads or tails out of an entire area is just an excuse. But even that is area specific. There are crags with dozens of open and closed projects which get micromanaged online. In which case, it makes sense to post it as a “closed” project. 

Agree to the above

Not a problem for me. I have a dozen petzl coeur pulse bolts. It doubles as making my sport climbing trad climbing, too.

But to answer the OP, I think Frank and Salamanizer hit the nail on the head: there's nuance to it, but it comes down to respecting others. Does adding the route add value to the MP database (like filling in all of the routes in a sector like Frank said) or does it detract value (not respecting the developers or potentially inviting unwitting people to do a route not suited for them).

Grahm Hornsbywrote:

This, unless mention of it is needed to avoid confusion with another route. If it is a particularly noteworthy and popular long standing open project that people will be wanting to get to, then maybe also, say like the Bill Clinton project at Rumney, Depending on it's significance (or lack there of), you could also just mention it in a comment. This goes more for climbs with fixed gear. 

I'll post some of my open projects at more obscure areas, that I have gotten all cleaned and equipped, but for whatever reason wasn't able to get back and complete as a lead so people will know there is something out there for them to get on. I'll sometimes put that I TRed it clean in the FA box, not for an ego stroke, but so people will know  it is climbable and has been linked

I think generally we don't want to be posting your run of the mill bouldering project, just because you think it is cool, though, again, it may be worthy of a mention in a comment. Let somebody who has actually  climbed it have the chance to define the line.