What Makes a Great Climbing Gym?

The ideal gym space in Boston or NYC is very different from the ideal gym space in Pittsburgh or St. Louis, which is in turn very different from the ideal gym in rural NH or rural ID.

If I'm paying >$1K or more for a single bedroom in a small shared apartment, then I need my gym rent to also pay for some of my third place budget. That could mean study rooms, or most importantly, just a really nice and consistently clean shower with good hot water pressure... but even a sauna fits this category. Anywhere you can chill without room mates.

If you are building a gym in a place that is fairly populous but where a normal person can afford a mortgage on a whole house, then clientele probably prefer gym rent to pay for the gym space and good setting. Amenities are nice, but do start to enter into the cost-benefit calculation bit more... and there might even be competition that can force that choice on you.

Once you get sufficiently rural and you're also serving as a meeting space... but you'll find upper bounds on pricing because your competition for recurring revenue is "my garage" or even "touching rock", and your competition on the cost side are other uses for the space, so good setting and/or rope climbing become differentiators.

Now that you have all of this advice from climbing gym users, your next step is obvious! Throw it all away, figure out who makes money off of birthday parties in your region, and copy those guys' marketing tactics ;-)

* **Specific features:** Are there particular features or amenities that you really enjoy?

• My favorite feature at any climbing gym I've been to that had it was an interesting wall configuration. For example, the Quarry in Provo, UT has 2 really great corners that there are always routes set in that were almost always my favorites - great for mantles. The Phoenix Rock Gym has a cool off width crack that breeds some fun routes
• Dedicated space for boards and training equipment 
• Autobelays

* **Atmosphere:** What kind of vibe do you prefer?

• Definitely chill is best. I'm not huge on socializing at the gym, but I don't mind chatting with people about beta a bit when bouldering. For this reason, I prefer bouldering areas that are in a circular arrangement as opposed to linear - makes it a bit easier to spectate and interact with others if desired.

* **Community:** How important is the community of climbers at your gym?

• Not a huge deal to me - but running comps at the gym is a plus.

**What could be improved?**

• The last gym I had a membership at (Gecko, in Phoenix) checked a lot of boxes, but had a ton of youth classes and parties. I think those are awesome, but they did seriously impact the serious climber's experience at the gym when entire sections of the gym were routinely cordoned off for classes. Dedicated class/party space would be awesome.

* **Pricing:** Are the membership fees reasonable?

• Price is generally more than I want to pay, but that is what it is.

* **Staff:** How helpful and friendly is the staff?

• Unless they are actively being hostile, staff are mostly fine. Staff that are oblivious to egregious belayer errors are definitely annoying

* **Cleanliness:** How important is a clean and well-maintained facility?

• Very big plus

* **Route-setting:** Do you prefer a variety of route styles and difficulties?

• I've definitely been to a few gyms that didn't have enough overhanging walls. I do think a comp-style bouldering wall is cool, as long as it is in a dedicated area.

Jake Joneswrote:

Honestly, the members for the most part, new climbers and old crusties are among the friendliest out there.  I've climbed at the other franchise in my area (from 2011 to 2018) and I can honestly say that this franchise puts more back into the business with its revenues, and has a much more noticeable focus on amenities and customer satisfaction.  

The fact that they follow "industry trends" too closely.  What do I mean?  Some moron forgets to clip into an auto belay in WA and somehow that means an unaffiliated gym in VA needs to take down auto belays on its tall walls.  This is but one example.

Slow responses on questions or requests.

Lots of things seemingly always broken or in a state of disrepair.

It's dirty af.

The bouldering is kind of cramped and doesn't have the height of walls that most modern facilities have.

There are no quickdraws on the slabby sections of the tall lead walls because (and I've asked multiple times) it's too "dangerous"- you know, as if leadable slabby routes don't exist anywhere else.

Only about 2/3 of the tall routes have quickdraws on them.  I've been asking about this for literal years and keep getting told "yeah we're going to order more".

I gave one of the owners an idea for getting top ropes out of the way so that people that want to lead routes don't have to worry about top ropes with giant steel carabiners on them don't drag across their back, and so leaders don't have to risk falling and getting tangled in a rope.  I told them that little loops sewed or velcroed on the edges of the mats would work great, and would NOT be cost prohibitive.  So, what did they do instead?  They ordered about 8 40lb sandbags that ropes can be attached to.  We're down to 1.  This seems super dumb to me, but I'm not a rock gym owner.

I enjoy the taller walls, and I enjoy the frequency with which routes are taken down and reset.

The atmosphere at my gym is great.  I can talk to people of all abilities and levels of experience and have a good time there.

"Community"  The most overused word in the English language since 2015 or so.  Idk what this means, and I don't look at climbers as a part of an overall "community" because people that use gyms as merely a training space for outdoor goals have almost nothing in common with people that come in and top rope once a week and never climb outside.  Tying a gym to a "community" is like tying a dog park to a "community".  There's little utility in it, outside of some basic and rudimentary concept.

The setting.  The quality, not the grades.  I've been indoor climbing for 15 years and can earnestly say that I don't really give a shit about grades.  I think most climbers, with my level of experience and familiarity, feel the same way.  Not only because we know our individual strengths and weaknesses directly contribute to how "hard" a problem or route feels, but also because we care more about quality than if a grade is accurate or not. 

The setting at this joint is all over the place.  Since I've been climbing there, they've had three different head setters.  The turnover rate for setters is very high.  First, I'll add the caveats that I know exist.

• In essentially a city that doesn't have any real outdoor climbing scene nearby, the pool of people that CAN be setters is small.  What I mean is, you need people that have a broad experience to set well, and part of that broad experience is being able to climb, arguably, upper 5.12/lower 5.13 IMO.  While there may be quite a few of those in any given locale, there's going to be a much smaller percentage in areas without a real climbing culture and an outdoor area nearby.  Out of these folks that are ostensibly qualified to set, only a sliver of them can set well, and are interested in being a route setter.
• Route setters probably don't get paid enough.
• A route setter that's a good setter, or a good climber, doesn't necessarily mean they're a good leader.  This will affect setting quality.
• Head setters probably have to deal with a lot of bullshit negative feedback from inexperienced climbers who don't know wtf they're talking about.

But...

The quality of the setting suffers regularly.  What do I mean?  First:  Variety.  There are a couple setters there that just don't know how to set.  I see routes that have spans that I can barely reach (I’m 6’2” with a +3 index) with poor feet or feet that are good, but are placed in such a location that they're not much good for maintaining a point of balance or facilitating the next move to the next hold or holds.  This is rampant in this gym.  This happens so frequently, that friends and I can cover the tag, guess who the setter is, and we wait until we've all climbed the route or problem and then give our opinions and they match invariably about 95% of the time. This should not and would not occur in a gym that has varied and quality setting and has a program that's focused on that.

Also, the head setter routinely sets the same types of routes over and over and over and over and over.  I mean it's almost comical.  The routes, if they're overhanging, have large holds that are really far apart.  If they're vertical or slabby, they'll have holds that have footholds that require an extraordinary amount if hip flexibility- think of crimps or bad holds for hands that require locking off and feet that are high-steps that are very near the bad hands.  Same thing there- we can cover up the tag, and share feedback and it's identical.  OR, we look at the tag, and assume that the climbing is going to be what I described above, and we're correct about 80 - 90% of the time.

The good setters always leave.  Once the setters that work there start getting good feedback and really knocking it out of the park, they leave.  One left for a bigger gym in the same franchise out of state.  Don't know where the other one went, but those two setters are the ones that didn't have any of the issues stated above, and now they're gone.  I don't know why and don't have any internal knowledge of the setting team- other than knowing one or two of the setters that are on the team, so I can't say why this is exactly.

This is just rumor, but I've heard it from sooooo many people that I'll mention it here.  I cannot personally attest to the veracity of this claim, so I'll label it as conjecture, but I will say that it FEELS correct to me.  I will say that if true, this is the part that gets under my skin the most.  Setters that set lead routes, particularly difficult lead routes NEED TO LEAD THE ROUTES THEY'RE SETTING.  I have it on pretty good authority that this fails to happen a lot of the time, and the result is sketchball clipping stances with bad fall potential- slabby, intersecting with other routes, on traverses, etc.  A good belayer can mitigate most of that, but the setters should have to put themselves at the risk that they're asking their paying customers to engage in.  Period.  

Not for the broken amenties (water fountain, soap dispenser, cold plunge, etc.), the trash and dirt that's always laying around, and the setting, but it's the best in my area and I get tired of pestering the club director who is a friend of mine, so I just deal.  But I can honestly say if a competitive franchise moved in and they didn't have the same issues, I'd find it hard NOT to leave.

Friendly?  Very.  Helpful?  Well, when you pay people poorly you're only going to get so much out of them.  The staff are all kids pretty much.  There's a few that stand out and are focused on good customer service and know the business well enough to point new climbers/customers in the right direction.  Also some of the staff don't climb, so even when they walk around to check on people (commonly known as lifeguarding) they don't know what they're looking for.  I've corrected several fairly dangerous situations while staff were standing nearby and said nothing.

Very important, but I would say this gym misses the mark far more than it hits it.

Peak Midlo, Peak RVA, or TRC.  If I had to guess I would say TRC I used to frequent peak RVA but am now at latitude.  

The stories I've heard about Manwall (even from staff ) at all 3 of those locations are quite concerning.  Gym staff need to understand who their primary clientele is and be trained accordingly.  

Thanks for all the feedback. I honestly appreciate it.

As I am sure many of you guessed, I am trying to get a gym opened in my local city of Pocatello Idaho. I know getting something like this done is a long shot, but I just have to try. I believe a state of the art climbing gym will be of huge benefit to our local community. So I just want to thank you guys for the feedback.

I have 2 potential investors, who have expressed interest in the project. I work in commercial construction and know contractors that could build the building; I will suggest sub contracting out the fabrication and design of the climbing wall to a seperate company, one that specializes in that field. I have contacted a real-estate company and got information on a lot that I consider perfect for the project.

I have some huge hurdles to jump over still, but this is one of those things that I just want to see if I can do it. As climbers I know you understand that mentality. I love climbing and I want to share it with my community as much as I can. Out here in SE Idaho we could use more climbers. We have many good crags and not many climbers.

Again thanks to everyone who responded ( Except for Abe to simply said "barf")

I would love to hear and see more about what you love in your gym. Send some pics, of stuff you think looks cool or just love the way it works. Happy holidays to everyone. Be safe out there and check your knots. 

Route setting. And it's the hardest thing to find. In most of the gyms I've been at and the one I go to now, the setters are all plastic boulderers who do not understand movement. They stack up sequences of unimaginative, disconnected boulder problems. Community (What is that), atmosphere, staff, and price are unimportant. Pay the fee, climb. 

I remember looking, though not climbing, at an impressive-looking wall at the University in Pocatello---is it still there? If so, is it accessible to the general public or only to the University community?

As for your initial question. I think that variety of angles, interesting features, creative but not overly bouldery route setting, frequent route/ boulder re-setting--a portion almost weekly if possible, are all very worthwhile. Also good spread of grades--not all either easy or hard.
Community is very important, but really needs to grow organically. A quality gym with a welcoming atmosphere for all---and not too intrusive with 'the rules', will quickly lead to a good  community.

Alan Rubinwrote:

I remember looking, though not climbing, at an impressive-looking wall at the University in Pocatello---is it still there? If so, is it accessible to the general public or only to the University community?

As for your initial question. I think that variety of angles, interesting features, creative but not overly bouldery route setting, frequent route/ boulder re-setting--a portion almost weekly if possible, are all very worthwhile. Also good spread of grades--not all either easy or hard.
Community is very important, but really needs to grow organically. A quality gym with a welcoming atmosphere for all---and not too intrusive with 'the rules', will quickly lead to a good  community.

Yes the ISU wall is still there. I have gone to it a handful of times since I have lived here the last 4 years. I would rather just drive the 45 minutes each way to climb at the Idaho Falls gym. I know other locals that do this as well. The ISU gym is only open 4 hours a day 6 days a week. In my opinion, it lacks what we have identified as the most important part of a good gym: Good Route Setting. Don't get me wrong it is not horrible. When I lived in Washington, I went to the climbing gym twice a week and climbed outside on the weekend. With the ISU gym being the only easy option, I just climb outside on the weekend and skip the gym. It is better than nothing, but not by much. 

I apologize to anyone who works there, that is just my opinion and that of many others I have talked to.

Below is the actual schedule of the gym hours for Dec and Jan. They are closed half the days. And only open 4 to 8 when they are open

Aaron Kwrote:

I am at the rec center right now... but I can only climb there at most once a week before I get tired of repeating the same routes and circuits

On the odd chance you're not aware, Basecamp in Ouray has a base level gym with a Moonboard and Tension Board, very adequate weight room, and dry tooling area. A bit of a drive for Montrose but better than nothing... I think I paid $60/month a couple summers ago. Pretty steep for what you get but again, better than nothing and definitely better than the rec center

As others have mentioned, by far the most important feature of a climbing gym is the quality of the setting. Ideal setting:

• is not made harder only by long reaches or smaller holds
• challenges a skill you can improve on
• is varied - some routes are a puzzling boulder problem, some are a pump fest, some are delicate crimps, some are a burly roof, some are desperate slopers, etc.
• replicates what it's like to climb outside, if that is the goal of your clients

I spent a day at a gym that has a no-barefoot policy, and I found that this made me feel a lot less comfortable at the gym overall. 

The BRC in Boulder has a slide to get down from the bouldering area, which is fun.

P Degnerwrote:

I spent a day at a gym that has a no-barefoot policy, and I found that this made me feel a lot less comfortable at the gym overall. 

ALL gyms should have a no barefoot policy!!

re: the no barefoot policy. Do climbers just have to carry flip flops around to change into right after their burn? 

Camdon Kaywrote:

re: the no barefoot policy. Do climbers just have to carry flip flops around to change into right after their burn? 

Or fold the heel down to stand in. Or keep them on, they’re gym shoes, not your best and tightest kicks.

Or Is this even more gross and homey wants to climb barefoot?

Also, I’ve been seeing signs that say that climbing shoes must be removed prior to entering the bathroom. Hell yes, but I worry about the people who needed that reminder.

I would be pretty stoked on a gym that had a good crack climbing area. One vertical splitter of every size from ring locks to fist stacks, a couple corners, and a perfect hand crack out the biggest overhang on the lead wall. Break the edges like a well used Indian Creek line, good texture inside and out, and no face routes set on the crack wall

Things that I really liked about climbing gyms I have been to:

Door separating the climbing area from the cafe and front desk - this allowed the air conditioner to be set to a cooler temp in the climbing area and prevents everything from getting covered in chalk.

Cafe that overlooks the climbing area

A small amount of workout equipment

Seperate area for birthday parties and events

Slideshows and guest speakers 

Quality and varied route and boulder setting

Bouldering wall designed to allow for long traversing (ARC training)

Inspiring youth climbing team with badass coaches.

Clean Showers

*I am basically describing the Riverfront Rock Gym in Wenatchee Wa.* I have been to a handful of gyms but that is the only gym I ever had a membership to. Props to RRG!

I also gotta give a shout out to Bouldering Projects. I only climbed at the Seattle - Poplar location and I loved it. We would drive there from Leavenworth in the winter sometimes, back before Wenatchee had a gym. I know one of the owners, Andy, he is a super good guy.

I think things like a system boards provide a great value to the gym and the members. It is basically hundreds of boulder problems that never need to be reset the staff members.

Hangboards and campus boards are essential pieces of a structured training program.

Cafes with beer provide a great way to spend more time with friends after climbing.

 A good location is super cool as well. When I was a member at RRG, sometimes I would warm up with some easy bouldering then jog the 10 mile loop trail without needing to move my car.

Is this going to be a big state of the art gym in a major populated area? Or a small local gym in a semi rural town? Huge climbing population already in existence, or trying to build a community? Because the priorities shift majorly between these factors. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

Is this going to be a big state of the art gym in a major populated area? Or a small local gym in a semi rural town? Huge climbing population already in existence, or trying to build a community? Because the priorities shift majorly between these factors. 

It needs to be a state of the art gym. We already have a small scrappy wall at the the local University, unfortunately they have horrible hours and no incentive to provide a high quality experience. They are only open 6 days a week and 4 hours a day, during school months. The vast majority of climbers there are students and part of their tuition covers their membership.

The project needs to be on par with other high quality gyms otherwise it would be a waste of time, because we already have a gym. Pretty much anything would be of higher quality than the ISU gym but I want it to really shine. I want it to be beautiful and attractive to new and experienced climbers.

Our local metro area is about 70,000 people. We do not have a huge climbing population, but Pocatello could for sure handle and provide for a large climbing population. We have crags in town with about 200 routes and dozens of boulder problems. About 600 routes and 150 boulder problems within an hour. An hour and a half drive gets us to City of Rocks / Castle rocks and The Fins. 2.5 hours gets us Teton NP, Little Cottonwood Canyon, Devil's Playground, Logan Canyon and others. 5 hour drives gets us to The Sawtooths, Uintas,  Gallatin, San Rafael Swell, Lander and many others.

So in a way, I am trying to build a community. There is already a core group of climbers here, but definitely room for many more.The most people I have seen at a local crag is 10 other people, at a crag with 172 climbs. We all know each other, share top ropes, carpool, and help each other out. Pocatello is a great place to be. Hopefully we get a gym and more cool people will join the community.

I like a shotcreted concrete wall with cracks and natural features you can use besides the color-coded plastic holds. This makes for a more outdoor- like experience. 

Crack machine! If a gym can afford a light-up, motorized angle tension board, I don't see why it can't have an adjustable crack. I climb in a gym to train for outdoors, and outdoors I climb crack. 

Funny story, I was climbing at the Cliffs in Brooklyn for the first time, and I asked at the front desk if they had any cracks. They said no. After climbing on the autobelays for a bit, I wandered around the corner and found a perfect hand crack built into the wall! So I guess I want my gym to have a crack, and I want the staff to know it exists. 

Or, you want the staff to know what a crack is. 

My favorite features for a world-class gym:

Autobelays for those times when your partners are unavailable or you need to get in a quick hard session.

Walls feature a variety of terrain including slab, dead vertical, overhang of various degrees, dihedrals, aretes, and cracks. I don't know much about the terrain in Idaho, but if you have much slab, please please please don't exclude slab walls. So many people who have no idea about slab technique get on a moderate outdoor slab and get freaked out, stranded, injured, or worse. Slab is not only practical for getting the skills to handle outdoor situations - where you might face big slabby runouts on old school routes -  but FUN for many of us. Similarly, if much of your outdoor terrain is trad, cracks are pretty essential. I like good, built-in crack lines of different sizes with some texture and variation, not a boring crack trainer.

Skilled route-setting that considers a variety of body types. At 5'7", I'm taller than about 90% of American women. If a problem is reachy for me, it's reachy for the vast majority of women. I don't mind the occasional big throw because that's the reality of outdoor climbing sometimes too, but it shouldn't be a feature of every hard gym route.

Routes rotate about every 4-6 weeks. That gives you plenty of time to work and enjoy a problem but enough variety. 

Locker rooms and showers are essential. A foot shower or detachable showerhead on a hose are especially nice so that I'm not washing my feet in the sink. Gender neutral or family restrooms. 

Wi-fi and a comfy spot to use a laptop.

Some method to facilitate matching up partners. My gym currently has a "trade a belay" Facebook group but not everyone is on FB. They're also trying in-person events that are like speed dating for finding belay partners, but I've never gone. Seems like a lot of potential embarassment if you don't match someone but are going to bump into them in the gym a lot. Then there's the traditional paper sign up clipboard where you can leave your number and what you're looking for, and some folks have tried a What's App group.

Radical idea - climbing classes should be free to members. I understand the economics but it boggles me that most climbing gyms have free yoga and fitness classes but charge for classes in climbing safety and skills.

Considering partnering and co-locating with (or renting space to) a yoga studio, crossfit box, or other fitness studio that's popular where you live. Give members the option to join one or both so that members are paying only for the services they use, members get a professional class experience, you get cross-over from the other studio's population, and you don't have to coordinate the non-climbing instructors.