What Makes a Great Climbing Gym?

JJ Marcuswrote:

Everyone without a belay partner would congregate and it would be very easy to make friends in-between autobelay sessions when your both trying the same route and have the same spot to rest.At the Front in Salt Lake City, it's more like do your auto-belays then run away and hide in their huge rest area far away from the auto's. 

Ironically, this was one of the only reasons I liked the Front. When I had a membership, I didn't have any time to waste, and I needed to get laps in before work/taking my kids to school. I actually didn't really want to climb with a partner at the gym--the gym is for training, and very few people at the gym want to actually train. If I need a partner, it's for climbing outside, and usually gym people are really bad candidates for that. 

Getting belay partners at the gym is easy, they're just not usually necessary.

I go to the climbing gym to climb and socialize; listening to any brand of music that is too loud for me to converse from 3-5 feet and is too loud to hear my climber/belayer is not my idea of value. Turn the music down so that it is merely background. Play any kind of music, but please change the style frequently. Kinda disappointed in the whole effort when I have to listen to some employees favorite for more than 2-3 songs in a row.

Staff that realize we climbers are the customer even if they call us members. A smile and simple greeting goes quite far establishing a pleasant and profitable environment.

Filters and “air exchangers” are well known in HVAC circles. Black lung was a thing for coal miners.

Explain to the “teams” that monopolizing routes breeds distaste, and remember that like youth baseball most won’t go to college or pro so moderate the attitude.

Ask yourself why you teach anything other than PBUS.

Fix the pads, tears are a hazard.

If you close at 10 pm don’t start insulting your customers at 9:45. Odds are good you don’t leave at 10:01. Turn off the music, fire up the vacuums and turn half the lights off (unless you have too many rips in the carpet.)

I don't understand the economics behind day pass costs. Seems like they tend to be around $30. Which is a lot more than the $10ish/day through membership.

I would have thought you want people in the door so you can sell them a membership. Also, isn't it a good thing to be the place the out-of-towners go? More interesting climbers from around the world? I would have thought day passes should be, if not loss leader, at least economically priced. There's still plenty of wiggle room before memberships become a bad idea dollar wise. 

Good air filtration/handling

Climate control-temperature should be set for climbing, not hanging out or sitting behind the front desk. it should be cool in there, almost too cold to be in a t shirt.  

Good training area, weights, rowing machine, dedicated area for stretching. Hangboards, campus boards.

Multiple adjustable boards.

Quality setting, interesting stuff in different styles, high density, an eye towards safety.

Consistency in grading-I don’t care if it’s super stout or super soft, just be consistent.

Keep the music at background level, I want to be able to hear my climber.

Dedicated birthday party/kids area. Obviously I would prefer not having them at all but I know the money is too good to turn down. Keeping the screaming newb kids to one area drastically improves other users experience.

Sauna.

Many autobelays.

Please for the love of god do not put a fucking speed wall in your gym.

Don’t do gym to crag days. Classes are great, teach people all the skills they need to get out there, but giant packs of people at the crag are obnoxious. If you do these types of classes please please please stress crag etiquette and how to pack out your own shit.

Classes- I feel like there’s a real lack of continuing ed for beginner climbers, seems like most places teach the raw basics of belaying/leading test you out of that and then you’re on your own, feel like people would benefit a lot from “intermediate” classes that teach the finer points.

Sep Mwrote:

I don't understand the economics behind day pass costs. Seems like they tend to be around $30. Which is a lot more than the $10ish/day through membership.

I would have thought you want people in the door so you can sell them a membership. Also, isn't it a good thing to be the place the out-of-towners go? More interesting climbers from around the world? I would have thought day passes should be, if not loss leader, at least economically priced. There's still plenty of wiggle room before memberships become a bad idea dollar wise. 

Those day pass fees are what subsidize your membership. Memberships are a steady source of income but not enough to run the facility off of. 

Shaun Johnsonwrote:

What do you love about your local gym?

Honestly, the members for the most part, new climbers and old crusties are among the friendliest out there.  I've climbed at the other franchise in my area (from 2011 to 2018) and I can honestly say that this franchise puts more back into the business with its revenues, and has a much more noticeable focus on amenities and customer satisfaction.  

 What do you not like about your local gym?

The fact that they follow "industry trends" too closely.  What do I mean?  Some moron forgets to clip into an auto belay in WA and somehow that means an unaffiliated gym in VA needs to take down auto belays on its tall walls.  This is but one example.

Slow responses on questions or requests.

Lots of things seemingly always broken or in a state of disrepair.

It's dirty af.

The bouldering is kind of cramped and doesn't have the height of walls that most modern facilities have.

There are no quickdraws on the slabby sections of the tall lead walls because (and I've asked multiple times) it's too "dangerous"- you know, as if leadable slabby routes don't exist anywhere else.

Only about 2/3 of the tall routes have quickdraws on them.  I've been asking about this for literal years and keep getting told "yeah we're going to order more".

I gave one of the owners an idea for getting top ropes out of the way so that people that want to lead routes don't have to worry about top ropes with giant steel carabiners on them don't drag across their back, and so leaders don't have to risk falling and getting tangled in a rope.  I told them that little loops sewed or velcroed on the edges of the mats would work great, and would NOT be cost prohibitive.  So, what did they do instead?  They ordered about 8 40lb sandbags that ropes can be attached to.  We're down to 1.  This seems super dumb to me, but I'm not a rock gym owner.

* **Specific features:** Are there particular features or amenities that you really enjoy? (e.g., auto-belays, campus boards, yoga studio, presentations or slideshows)

I enjoy the taller walls, and I enjoy the frequency with which routes are taken down and reset.

* **Atmosphere:** What kind of vibe do you prefer? (e.g., chill and laid-back, competitive and intense)

The atmosphere at my gym is great.  I can talk to people of all abilities and levels of experience and have a good time there.

* **Community:** How important is the community of climbers at your gym? 

"Community"  The most overused word in the English language since 2015 or so.  Idk what this means, and I don't look at climbers as a part of an overall "community" because people that use gyms as merely a training space for outdoor goals have almost nothing in common with people that come in and top rope once a week and never climb outside.  Tying a gym to a "community" is like tying a dog park to a "community".  There's little utility in it, outside of some basic and rudimentary concept.

**What could be improved?**

The setting.  The quality, not the grades.  I've been indoor climbing for 15 years and can earnestly say that I don't really give a shit about grades.  I think most climbers, with my level of experience and familiarity, feel the same way.  Not only because we know our individual strengths and weaknesses directly contribute to how "hard" a problem or route feels, but also because we care more about quality than if a grade is accurate or not. 

The setting at this joint is all over the place.  Since I've been climbing there, they've had three different head setters.  The turnover rate for setters is very high.  First, I'll add the caveats that I know exist.

• In essentially a city that doesn't have any real outdoor climbing scene nearby, the pool of people that CAN be setters is small.  What I mean is, you need people that have a broad experience to set well, and part of that broad experience is being able to climb, arguably, upper 5.12/lower 5.13 IMO.  While there may be quite a few of those in any given locale, there's going to be a much smaller percentage in areas without a real climbing culture and an outdoor area nearby.  Out of these folks that are ostensibly qualified to set, only a sliver of them can set well, and are interested in being a route setter.
• Route setters probably don't get paid enough.
• A route setter that's a good setter, or a good climber, doesn't necessarily mean they're a good leader.  This will affect setting quality.
• Head setters probably have to deal with a lot of bullshit negative feedback from inexperienced climbers who don't know wtf they're talking about.

But...

The quality of the setting suffers regularly.  What do I mean?  First:  Variety.  There are a couple setters there that just don't know how to set.  I see routes that have spans that I can barely reach (I’m 6’2” with a +3 index) with poor feet or feet that are good, but are placed in such a location that they're not much good for maintaining a point of balance or facilitating the next move to the next hold or holds.  This is rampant in this gym.  This happens so frequently, that friends and I can cover the tag, guess who the setter is, and we wait until we've all climbed the route or problem and then give our opinions and they match invariably about 95% of the time. This should not and would not occur in a gym that has varied and quality setting and has a program that's focused on that.

Also, the head setter routinely sets the same types of routes over and over and over and over and over.  I mean it's almost comical.  The routes, if they're overhanging, have large holds that are really far apart.  If they're vertical or slabby, they'll have holds that have footholds that require an extraordinary amount if hip flexibility- think of crimps or bad holds for hands that require locking off and feet that are high-steps that are very near the bad hands.  Same thing there- we can cover up the tag, and share feedback and it's identical.  OR, we look at the tag, and assume that the climbing is going to be what I described above, and we're correct about 80 - 90% of the time.

The good setters always leave.  Once the setters that work there start getting good feedback and really knocking it out of the park, they leave.  One left for a bigger gym in the same franchise out of state.  Don't know where the other one went, but those two setters are the ones that didn't have any of the issues stated above, and now they're gone.  I don't know why and don't have any internal knowledge of the setting team- other than knowing one or two of the setters that are on the team, so I can't say why this is exactly.

This is just rumor, but I've heard it from sooooo many people that I'll mention it here.  I cannot personally attest to the veracity of this claim, so I'll label it as conjecture, but I will say that it FEELS correct to me.  I will say that if true, this is the part that gets under my skin the most.  Setters that set lead routes, particularly difficult lead routes NEED TO LEAD THE ROUTES THEY'RE SETTING.  I have it on pretty good authority that this fails to happen a lot of the time, and the result is sketchball clipping stances with bad fall potential- slabby, intersecting with other routes, on traverses, etc.  A good belayer can mitigate most of that, but the setters should have to put themselves at the risk that they're asking their paying customers to engage in.  Period.  

* **Pricing:** Are the membership fees reasonable?

Not for the broken amenties (water fountain, soap dispenser, cold plunge, etc.), the trash and dirt that's always laying around, and the setting, but it's the best in my area and I get tired of pestering the club director who is a friend of mine, so I just deal.  But I can honestly say if a competitive franchise moved in and they didn't have the same issues, I'd find it hard NOT to leave.

* **Staff:** How helpful and friendly is the staff?

Friendly?  Very.  Helpful?  Well, when you pay people poorly you're only going to get so much out of them.  The staff are all kids pretty much.  There's a few that stand out and are focused on good customer service and know the business well enough to point new climbers/customers in the right direction.  Also some of the staff don't climb, so even when they walk around to check on people (commonly known as lifeguarding) they don't know what they're looking for.  I've corrected several fairly dangerous situations while staff were standing nearby and said nothing.

* **Cleanliness:** How important is a clean and well-maintained facility?

Very important, but I would say this gym misses the mark far more than it hits it.

The Traddest Dadwrote:

Ironically, this was one of the only reasons I liked the Front. When I had a membership, I didn't have any time to waste, and I needed to get laps in before work/taking my kids to school. I actually didn't really want to climb with a partner at the gym--the gym is for training, and very few people at the gym want to actually train. If I need a partner, it's for climbing outside, and usually gym people are really bad candidates for that. 

Getting belay partners at the gym is easy, they're just not usually necessary.

110% agree with this. Having training facilities with a weight room, a good hangboard (tension grindstone), and some sort of system board is paramount to me. Next most important is traverse wall, or some area where I can get a lot of mileage for endurance workouts without having to interfere with other people’s boulders.

The whole community aspect is not important in the slightest. I wear AirPods the entire time I’m there. Climbing ropes indoors is a total waste of time IMO. I only do it to keep up belaytionships and to meet new outdoor partners in a lower stakes setting.

barf

Climb Onwrote:

Those day pass fees are what subsidize your membership. Memberships are a steady source of income but not enough to run the facility off of. 

Well that’s just not true at all lol 

Birthday parties/reservation, punch passes, and memberships cover 90% or more of operating costs for a gym. Add in day passes, shoe and chalk rentals, team fees, and other random sales and you have the remaining 10% plus profit margins. 

I like a consistently steep wall that is wide enough to have multiple routes of the same grade within that part of the wall.

Steep climbing necessitates bigger holds for the same grade. So you get to work your larger muscle groups and push your pump clock, rather than tweak your fingers.

On opening moves, put some damn footholds on the thing. If a setter can’t figure out how to make a certain grade without removing feet, he can go kick rocks.

I understand prices are high but there needs to be reasonable standards for families. So many families, mine included, skip the gym membership due to price. At our local roped gym, my family (kids 5 and 7) would cost almost as much as 4 adults. They only use an extremely small part of the gym and only a few tries a day before they become too distracted to climb.

Profiteering off of families is no way to build a community. We go to the bouldering gym just to avoid being gouged, even though it’s no one’s preference.

I still don’t know how to balance the need for frequent route setting and the desire to climb in a gym that doesn’t resemble a construction zone. 

Solid training and fitness area.

No birthday parties.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Profiteering off of families is no way to build a community. 

I feel you but gyms like Earth Treks and Momentum exist to make profit. They are a business. Their biggest focus is to make money, not build community. This is why the mom and pop gyms, while often being cheaper, are dying.…that and nobody appreciates 30 year old climbing holds anymore.

along with what's above 

 staff assist and help control kids.  teams, birthday parties, or otherwise.  

Showers - bonus points if clean towels provided

Living in a town with no climbing gym, and maybe climbing in a gym once a month, makes me laugh at pickiness over things like type of yoga classes or brand of hangboard. As long as you're not an extremely strong boulderer, you can get what you need from just about any gym if you put your mind to it!

Just going to fill in the template from OP

* **Specific features:** Are there particular features or amenities that you really enjoy? (e.g., auto-belays, campus boards, yoga studio, presentations or slideshows)

I think that having broad array of amenities appeals to a wider customer base and the spectrum of climbing experience (beginner vs. experienced) may influence which amenities are important. I think that more experienced climbers want things like system boards (e.g., TB2, Kilter, MB, etc.), campus boards, weight lifting/cardio areas. Some amenities like yoga rooms, ping pong tables, saunas, showers, etc. appeal to people across experience level. Another BIG and basic/important feature is having gender neutral/all gender bathrooms.

* **Atmosphere:** What kind of vibe do you prefer? (e.g., chill and laid-back, competitive and intense)

I think this is dependent on who is going there, how hard the setting is, what system boards are available, etc.

* **Community:** How important is the community of climbers at your gym? 

I think various affinity groups/event nights really helps to bring people together and create community. The gyms that have these tend to foster more connections which keep the people coming back and maybe even lead to memberships. Other events I've heard of are celebrations of "international climbing day", "climbing in the dark", "valentines partner climbs", etc. Comps also bring in people and can bring people together.

* **Staff:** How helpful and friendly is the staff?

Staff should be attentive and be trained to help folks. Hard to describe customer service over a text medium. Suffice to say... staff should be friendly and helpful.

* **Cleanliness:** How important is a clean and well-maintained facility?

Obviously you want a clean facility to prevent any infections/diseases between people. I think well maintained vs. not well-maintained can make a gym seem like a commercial gym vs. dirt bagger gym. Regardless of how well maintained it is, there's obviously baseline levels that minimize liability for the gym as well. 

* **Route-setting:** Do you prefer a variety of route styles and difficulties?

Of course route-setting for a variety of styles, heights, and abilities is important. The gyms that I enjoy climbing the most at have climbs that are friendly for shorter folks. I mainly boulder and I think that having a "meat & potatoes" range of grades, specifically v3-5, that isn't too hard but isn't too soft make up the majority of climbs is key for keeping people coming. When looking at the total # of climbs for each grade, in other words, I think most of the climbs should be set at an intermediate level. It's pretty obvious that a narrow selection of holds gets boring quickly so if a wider selection of holds (and volumes) can be attained that would be great. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I feel you but gyms like Earth Treks and Momentum exist to make profit. They are a business. Their biggest focus is to make money, not build community. This is why the mom and pop gyms, while often being cheaper, are dying.…that and nobody appreciates 30 year old climbing holds anymore.

I am not talking about those gyms. I wish my local gym was as cheap as that chain. With what ET/Movement offers for the price, I would feel fortunate to pay it, if I were still in Colorado.

I just looked t up to make sure I’m not talking out my ass. A full movement monthly membership or the prepaid yearly membership are both significantly cheaper than my local gym. Even though movement offers like 10 times the terrain and non climbing activities as well 

Aaron Kwrote:

Living in a town with no climbing gym

No love for the Rec Center? Or the Ridgway High School Tuesday night toprope party? ;-) j/k

F r i t zwrote:

No love for the Rec Center? Or the Ridgway High School Tuesday night toprope party? ;-) j/k

I am at the rec center right now... but I can only climb there at most once a week before I get tired of repeating the same routes and circuits

things my gym has that i really appreciate 

- varied setting styles (good balance of dynamic and static as well as many hold types)

-very friendly staff 

-moonboard,campus board, many hang boards, lots of workout equipment 

-consistent community and usac comps

-very accessible and intuitive website and classes/private coaching 

-designated bday area

-shop that has a multitude of items like snacks trad gear or even camping necessities (also not overpriced at all)

things i wish my gym had

-larger bouldering area ( the ropes area is probably 3 times the size of the bouldering area)

-separate area for comp boulders 

#5-#7 size squeeze chimney