New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #32

Lori Milas wrote:

On our way out, Bob pointed out this rock and mentioned the fact that our dear Kris Solem did the first ascent. The closer we got the more baffling it was how anyone could climb this rock.

KRIS, i’m really hoping you have a story to tell about this and maybe even some pictures?

In all truth I don't recognize that rock. Of course, Bob's knowledge is encyclopedic, so if he says I climbed it I must have. Maybe you can tell me where it is, and the name of the route?

Kristian Solem wrote:

In all truth I don't recognize that rock. Of course, Bob's knowledge is encyclopedic, so if he says I climbed it I must have. Maybe you can tell me where it is, and the name of the route?

Hi Kris, 

That's Sinagar Rock, out by the Comic Strip. The route is The Hardest Route in the World, 5.12+, First Ascent: Herb Laeger, Kevin Daniels, and Kris Solem, 1992.

5.12+? Sounds like an impossibly hard climb at Joshua Tree. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Lori, 

Your chimney route reminds me of Honeymoon Chimneys on the Priest in Castle Valley. (Yeah, I use to do more than just boulder ;)

The first pitch is OW but I could get half my body into it so it felt secure for me. The crux pitch is amazing: easy stemming, leads to hands on one side and feet on the other and then two crimps and let ones feet swing onto the face. This is while staring down at the ground from about 200 feet up! Then some maybe 10+ face climbing to the anchors. 

I'm sure there's a few on here that have done that route...?

OK, I’ll admit it, I don’t know why you prefer boulders to roped climbing. Just think of the fun we would have on Sugarloaf. Those routes generally go UP.  But I see you have the fever for bouldering and no amount of logic is going to talk you out of it.  

My chimney route sounds a lot like Honeymoon Chimneys although I haven’t seen the second half of my route yet. I am still trying to get to it!  But there is definitely a part where the best choice is both hands on one wall and both feet on another. I gave that a very modest try and what I heard from below was “push-ups would help.“   And then there is the part where you detach from one wall, as you described, and plant yourself on the other so you can face climb. I haven’t done that part yet either.

I’ll get used to this one way or another. I am just itching to know what the second half of this route is like. It remains unnamed and ungraded until I can climb it Bottom to top.

Right now, I’d like to ask this group for any tips on hydration. I know my diabetes is a special case, but the last three times I’ve been out I have really struggled with incredible thirst upon exertion. I try to drink 20 to 30 ounces of water as I’m leaving the house. I brought close to 2 quarts of water with me, which is a lot to carry on a one-mile hike.  I’m honestly not thirsty most of the time, until I suddenly am.  My stubborn high blood sugar yesterday was probably due to dehydration. Also, the amount of body spasms, cramps and dry mouth, nausea, etc.  

How do you guys hydrate, do use electrolytes and if so, how much. Does it help to power down liquids the night before? Does it help to aggressively replenish when you get home?  

LiHu… to look at this route (Kris’ route) up close Is baffling. I don’t know how these guys managed it or even managed the start of it. When I just want a hit of the metaphysical, I go visit some of these 12 and a 13 climbs. I mean they were not even sport routes. I don’t know if they were projects. There weren’t special shoes.

Bob Gaines wrote:

Hi Kris, 

That's Sinagar Rock, out by the Comic Strip. The route is The Hardest Route in the World, 5.12+, First Ascent: Herb Laeger, Kevin Daniels, and Kris Solem, 1992.

Oh, that thing. Yeah, there’s a story.

Herb Laeger had found it and done some work on it before he showed it to me. Either his wife Eve was belaying him, or another partner lost interest. I’m not sure. That wouldn't be the only time I stepped in to replace one of Herb's partners. The Face of a Blue Eyed Dog up at Courtright is another. Anyway, the first time I saw it he already had a couple of bolts in which, considering the difficulty of the climbing and the fact that Herb would die before he placed a bolt on rappel, represented considerable effort. He was very excited about the route.

What I recall of the climbing is that on the lower part there is a ramp-like feature with some very difficult stemming. This was when I decided I had to master that boulder problem over by Gunsmoke called Streetcar, which offers up some hard stemming (although not as hard as that on Herb’s route).

The true crux was some face moves up high, and that section featured a small hold that was going to break. I could see that when it broke the already desperate move would be harder, and since glueing was not in our vocabulary, I kind of lost interest. But, we persisted, and got our ascent even while degrading the hold.

I don’t recall how it happened, but the hold did get broken by someone, and I was never able to repeat the line after that. But I heard from Herb that he took Kevin Daniels out there, who did it with the broken hold. There was a window of time when Kevin was the strongest among us, so this didn’t surprise me.

Since the climb was every bit of 5.12 when I could do it, the “+” went on after the hold broke. Herb had named the route before I ever set eyes on it. I remember him asking me if I wanted to try “The Hardest Route in The World” with him…

Cool story Kris! Cool climb! Sounds like a classic.   

Lori, did you notice that Kris mentioned bouldering “to get the moves”?   

phylp phylp wrote:

Nice photos of you on your route!

I'll share this one from today:

I was very proud of my color coordination before going for a walk with my husband.  It was another spectacular SoCal day - 75 and sunny!

I meant to applaud your color coordination.  Definitely BLUE!!!  

Lori Milas wrote:

OK, I’ll admit it, I don’t know why you prefer boulders to roped climbing. Just think of the fun we would have on Sugarloaf. Those routes generally go UP.  But I see you have the fever for bouldering and no amount of logic is going to talk you out of it.  

My chimney route sounds a lot like Honeymoon Chimneys although I haven’t seen the second half of my route yet. I am still trying to get to it!  But there is definitely a part where the best choice is both hands on one wall and both feet on another. I gave that a very modest try and what I heard from below was “push-ups would help.“   And then there is the part where you detach from one wall, as you described, and plant yourself on the other so you can face climb. I haven’t done that part yet either.

I’ll get used to this one way or another. I am just itching to know what the second half of this route is like. It remains unnamed and ungraded until I can climb it Bottom to top.

Right now, I’d like to ask this group for any tips on hydration. I know my diabetes is a special case, but the last three times I’ve been out I have really struggled with incredible thirst upon exertion. I try to drink 20 to 30 ounces of water as I’m leaving the house. I brought close to 2 quarts of water with me, which is a lot to carry on a one-mile hike.  I’m honestly not thirsty most of the time, until I suddenly am.  My stubborn high blood sugar yesterday was probably due to dehydration. Also, the amount of body spasms, cramps and dry mouth, nausea, etc.  

How do you guys hydrate, do use electrolytes and if so, how much. Does it help to power down liquids the night before? Does it help to aggressively replenish when you get home?  

LiHu… to look at this route (Kris’ route) up close Is baffling. I don’t know how these guys managed it or even managed the start of it. When I just want a hit of the metaphysical, I go visit some of these 12 and a 13 climbs. I mean they were not even sport routes. I don’t know if they were projects. There weren’t special shoes.

After having almost died from a kidney infection after climbing at the Red River Gorge for 8 days in 90+ heat, I'm particularly cautious with hydration.  I usually carry at least 3 and usually 4 Polar water bottles (I think about 120 ounces), more if it is a long hot day.  Water or maybe water mixed with a little lime juice for some flavor. I freeze 1 or 2 beforehand if it is a really hot day so they are cold when I want them.   And, yes, I hydrate more when I get done climbing.  Hydrating the night before would only keep me up all night peeing :).  Everyone is a bit different, but I'm guessing your doc would say 2 quarts for a day of desert climbing is not enough for someone of "our" generation.

Tim…. I always thought the rule of thumb is: A quart and a half per day per man….. :>) 

Lori: about 5 versions of this thread ago, we discussed hydration in depth. Phylp noted that when she gets back to the car she drinks about as much water as she can handle, I do that also but add in a bunch of beers. When one climbs really long climbs you can’t bring enough water, it’s just a fact of life.
On my first BBQ, Mike Pope and I hiked up to climb “The Pea Soup” a 8,9 pitch 5.9 A3 grade V. We started late, the 2nd pitch A3 shallow crack required nesting knife blades- for a long way- took me some time and I was absorbed in doing it and didn’t notice the sun getting quite low in the west. When I finally ended that pitch Mike suggested we “go for it” because “how far can it be?”… well to cut this story short we ended up benighted on the 4th class chimney pitch- wasn’t that bad we could at least sit down.
We busted out our water and had a few sips- Mike set the bottle down (he says I set it down) and as we moved around a bit the bottle got knocked over and rolled into space.
So we spent a hungry thirsty night- for some dumb ass reason we had brought saltine crackers to sustain us. Mike wisely tossed them overboard. We started to continue as soon as we could see and got to the summit of Vodo Dome around 10am. On the long descent around back we found a spring, a mud hole to be specific. Putting your boot into the mud, the footprint would slowly fill up with water, muddy water, we took turns drinking that sweet nectar. When we could speak we continued our decent. We arrived at Needle Rock Creek and spent the next few hours drinking and soaking in it.

I learned a ton on that climb. It was after both of US had been climbing maybe 6 months.

Fun times 

later all 

great story. I am cheap as fck when it comes to carrying weight. I hate carrying water in my pack. that shit is heavy. I try to carry enough inside me. For day trips I have it pretty dialed. I try to drink about two liters on the way to the trailhead. I have to stop a lot and take emergency pee breaks but usually make it through the day without carrying the extra weight in my pack. If i know I will need more I still do my two liters to start and then just bring a 2o oz bottle to round out the day. 

Tim, thank you for this.  I'm feeling a bit embarrassed.  Today I'm having a real come to Jesus awakening.  I should know all this by now... hydration is the buzz word everywhere.  But apparently I'm still off by a mile.  All I can say is that it's a big switch going from a fairly sedentary city girl to living in the desert and playing hard.  I'm going to fix this hydration situation asap.

I recently bought a home air testing meter because I was wondering whether we might have radon.  We have no radon, but I see the hourly humidity readings hover around 18%..  I thought room humidifiers would fix that, but they don't touch the levels.  So now I boil big pots of water every morning, until the levels come up to at least 'fair'.  And I would not have known.  Other than a chronic cough and sinus problem I developed last year, it never occurred to me that it could be due to dryness. (and mold)  And climbing in this aridity, I'm sure, contributes;  

The learning curve here is steeper than I ever thought it would be.  

(Guy... just reading your post.  That's the thing... what you could do as a youngster, is maybe not what you can do now.  I do remember that thread, and yet I still have more to learn.  Aging and diabetes have certainly changed the equation for me.  Plus, as Tim wrote about... I've known several athletes and runners who have gotten severe kidney infections, or lost a kidney, due to stones and dehydration.  I just have to review the rules and make it happen.)   The worst of it is I'm missing precious hours on rock, because of nausea, blood sugar, dehydration.  

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Thinking about The Hardest Route In The World.. I'm wondering about grading. Is there a difference when grading a route that is bolted and structured for sport climbing, as opposed to trad? If someone could hangdog and work that route endlessly, would the grade be the same?

While we were out yesterday Bob showed me a couple of routes that Charles Cole did the FA on.  I had been looking at one of them last summer... looked extremely dangerous.  I didn't realize it also wasn't bolted.  I doubt anyone has climbed it since.  And I understand that, Charles being no longer alive, it would not be possible to bolt that beautiful line so it could be climbed today by MORTALS .  Photo by C Miller.

I just.... cannot get my head around what went on here bitd.  I admire Adam Ondra, etc... would he have risked climbing anything like this? 

---

I filed a complaint with the State on Tony's nursing home.  I won't keep posting pics of his meals except this one.  But I have a heart for the elderly there, who are being starved.  Apparently current staff have and are threatening to quit over this.  From above, this is a 1 x 1 inch piece of cornbread.  That was dinner in its entirety..

Todd... I have visited Gunsmoke.  I'll bet Brandt has spent time there.  I think I'm more lazy than risk averse.  The route I'm working on now... why not just work the route?  

It's kind of funny, Todd... I think of you whenever I run across a big boulder that looks great to me.  I think "Todd might like this."  But then, I can't guess what the special je ne sais quoi you seek in selecting a project.  

As for J Tree history, I really love the stories, much more than the just the guidebook coordinates and FA info.  I know that recently some of the original climbers here gave long interviews to a local university (I believe???)... it's all there.  But even I grew tired of listening to long interviews that are archived who knows where.  I'm deeply grateful for a real 'you are there' from so many climbers here.  This place has really come alive.  

(Randy... thanks for your comment.  I should have looked it up.  I can say it LOOKS dangerous.  Point taken. )

Lori Milas wrote:

While we were out yesterday Bob showed me a couple of routes that Charles Cole did the FA on.  I had been looking at one of them last summer... looked extremely dangerous.  I didn't realize it also wasn't bolted.  I doubt anyone has climbed it since.  And I understand that, Charles being no longer alive, it would not be possible to bolt that beautiful line so it could be climbed today by MORTALS .  Photo by C Miller.

I just.... cannot get my head around what went on here bitd.  I admire Adam Ondra, etc... would he have risked climbing anything like this? 

Lori, if you look the route up, you will see that it has a gear placement in the horizontal and Two (2) bolts. It is a little run out, and the bolts probably need to be replaced, but this is not a particularly dangerous route and absolutely Zero need to retro-bolt it. Yes, mere mortals can climb it, and it has been climbed a number of times. And, I am positive, Adam Ondra would find it quite easy.

Personally, I find the notion that routes need to be retro-bolted to meet the needs of the masses repugnant and contrary to the spirit of climbing. In a Park with close to 10,000 climbs, not all routes need to be available to all people. [And, believe me, there are many routes -- including ones I did the FA -- that are now beyond my risk level.]

Deja Vu is a very doable route. I've led it, which is proof positive that it ain't that bad. 

Lori, it seems I can't copy and paste here from another MP thread. I wanted to repost Rick Accomazzo's post about the upcoming thing he's doing at JT. I assume you know about it, but want to be sure because it sounds like it will be very interesting and a lot of fun.

I'm with Randy against retro bolting. 

Although I did retro-bolt one of my own routes. Back in 1987 I was guiding a client who wanted to do a first ascent. Her name was Penny. So I led (basically soloed) a 100-foot 5.8 slab on Echo Rock at Joshua Tree with no bolts. She picked the name: Penny Lane (5.8 X) The X rating means that if you fall off the crux you'll probably die.

I know that the majority of climbers probably don't record their ascents with "Ticks" on Mountain Project, but looking at the tick list on Mountain Project, exactly 2 ascents were recorded for Penny Lane in the 29 years between 1987 and 2016. 

In 2016 I added 7 bolts and an anchor, and between 2016 and today there are 393 recorded Ticks (about a dozen commented that it was "scary") and 487 people have it on their "To Do" lists.

As a person who rarely feels thirsty, I still avoid getting dehydrated by just making myself drink small amounts all day.  You can't wait until you are thirsty, it is too late then.  Same for food, although I break that rule all the time.  Seems I have the most stable blood sugar in the world and can have a light breakfast and not need to eat until dinner.  But, every once in a while I get caught out and bonk.

I'm gonna throw my backing in with Bob and Randy.  There is no reason to add bolts to existing routes.  Either someone can muster the mental and physical fortitute to do the route, or they should stay off it and find one of the other many thousands that they are qualified to do.

On the subject of why boulder?  The answer has been told to you by Mr. Gill repeatedly.  There is an art to perfecting the movement on a problem that just feels so good.  For some, that is the most important part of climbing.  Yet others only boulder because their capacity for the risks involved in leading routes as hard as they can climb is missing, or they just don't enjoy challenging that barrier.  As a gymnast I love both aspects of climbing and so have both bouldered extensively and led nasty, scary, death defying routes.  I don't think anyone should feel good or bad about which of these they enjoy, just do what you do enjoy.

It's interesting and timely that the subject of retrobolting has come up- I've been thinking about this for a while now as it relates to my local crag, and the recent thread about Leavitt's 'Book of Hate' retrobolting brought it back to mind. Like both Randy and Bob, I have a strong aversion to the practice, unless the FA'ist feels it's appropriate and consents. If that person has passed on, I tend to be in school of allowing the route to remain in the state that it was originally climbed in.

While there seems to be a strong generational attitude that supports this view, I have been wondering how much longer it will last. Tahquitz and Suicide are both very traditional (for the most part), and they have remained that way largely due to a community and culture that supports that style and honors that history. That community definitely seems to be on the wane in recent years, and it's seems likely that a newer generation of climbers will eventually find consensus that the style of protection of slab climbing on the Weeping Wall (for example) is unacceptable and needs 'updating'....and no-one from earlier generations will be around to push back against this.

Maybe I'm wrong, and there are enough current generation climbers (poor phrasing, I know) to continue that history here at T & S. I hope that's the case.

phylp phylp wrote:

Nice photos of you on your route!

I'll share this one from today:

I was very proud of my color coordination before going for a walk with my husband.  It was another spectacular SoCal day - 75 and sunny!

Cool tights. I reckon I’d wear something like that. I tell Cindy I have climbing ‘costumes’. When I pack for a trip I pack ensuring I have matching t shirts, etc. Cindy says it’s not a fashion show and I correct her and say ALL of LIFE us a fashion show. 

• I think retro bolting is OK with the FAs agreement if it makes a route more accessible (safe).  Some routes are dangerous.  Not 'spicy' or 'bold', just dangerous.  I once bought a 1958 Holden FC (look it up, you'll find it interesting). I got seat belts fitted. That's like retro bolting. I didn't wan to to die in an accident with the steering column stuck through my chest.
• I'm always dehydrated. I drink way less than two liters of water a day.  Normally less than a litre. I take my water in tea and beer. I take my calories in very highly processed simple carbs.
• TRing is VAF (Valid As Fuck).
• Bing fearful while TRing should spark self analysis.
• Bouldering outdoors is Zen like. Esp if you're with a crew and stoned. Bouldering is the only form of climbing where I permit smoking. It's almost required. But bouldering outdoors is not for old men.
• Bouldering indoors is not Zen like. Even if you're stoned. Bouldering indoors while stoned is a bit creepy. Not real cool; outdoors = Yes, indoors = No. That's just the way it is, man.
• 230 pounds is a lot of weight. I'm Mr Muffin Man at 68 kilos. I should be maybe 64 kilos, at least I should be about 2% less BF, but, as discussed, I'm a dehydrated carb junkie; did I mention the beer? Currently having two cans of 'Kick Back Welcome Stranger' IPA at 7% ABV.
• Will Canada become the next US state and if Elon buys it can he legally gift it to Trump considering Biden just gifted Hunter the rest of his (Hunter's) life, or will The Governator decree a law that sees him take the throne from Trump in 2028, with Sly at his side, just as the Arctic melts revealing mammoth spaceships hidden under the ice that Elon can reverse engineer and fly to Mars to become Supreme God Lord Emperor of the Tesla Confederate of Mars sparking a space war between The Terminator and Rambo, and Elon and Trump, who floats through the air and is fat and disgusting like that dude in the Dune movie. Asking for a friend. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_FC

When it comes to stupid dangerous routes that no one climbs I much prefer that they get fixed. If people are climbing them then they don't need fixing.   Perhaps out west is different because you have so much rock but here in the north east  we have a lot of people and not much rock. Its a real shame when someone ruins a good route with a shitty bolting job.   I have plenty of hand drilled ground up FA's and have gone back and fixed most of them.   Its really awesome that Sykes got married and old and started going back and fixing a bunch of his climbs  so that he and his wife could climb them in their retirement.  Now if Randy and Dave would step up ;)   If someone wants to be remembered as a bad ass I much prefer they free solo than put up intentionally dangerous climbs. 

I did a 5.8 FA at a roadside crag in Killington VT years ago with no bolts. No one repeated it for a full year. I finally talked Isa into leading it and she promptly called me an asshole for almost getting her killed. I added a single bolt to the climb that day and it got climbed about a dozen times that weekend. People loved it. Climbing is fun.