TR-ing on Mussy Hooks Cool in Yosemite?

Brandon Rwrote:

Nobody has died from the act of clipping into mussy hooks from a properly set up anchor that hangs below the hooks, and it's unlikely anyone ever will. No need to get offended by something that never happened. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/125127969/sand-rock-october-14
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/124636099/why-are-mussy-hooks-not-installed-oppositeopposed

Brandon Rwrote:

ASCA and similar organizations, as well as the stewards who donate their time and money to replacing old and worn hardware are a great thing, but how much demand do we really want to put on them? 

More and more folks are learning how to install/replace bolts every year. More than last year, and the year before.
Who else is shouldering that burden or should be in your opinion then?

Every set of anchor rings or mussy hooks that needs replaced is time/effort/money that could have been used to replace a bad protection bolt. Look at this route in Yosemite for example. 

So one should not have replaced the anchor hardware but opt for the spinner with bent hanger? I fail to understand the point. Maybe the anchor needed some love...and it got it. Maybe the Spinner is next. You know what kind of bolt it is? or do you just assume spinners are unsafe?
Could be as simples as unscrewing a bolt taking off the old hanger and putting a new one on.
OR it needs to be pulled patched and a new one HAND drilled. Which takes a lot me effort/planning in a national park. Did you try reaching out to anyone to mitigate the issue?
You could also learn to bolt and pay it forward instead of complaining that someone did the community a service, but wasn't enough of a service somehow because they didn't take care of that bolt instead?

And there are definitely going to be people less likely to want to donate that money/time/effort once they see the attitudes displayed here are how their time/money/effort are valued.

Huh? Like your attitude perhaps?
Lovely folks donate all the time to dirtbags like me as they appreciate the fact the wear items at the anchor offer convenience, safety, and time savings. Yay more climbing and less faffing! 

There's a real misplaced idea of what safety is here too, IMO. You're really just trading out the chance that your 70 IQ cousin that you send up to clean the anchor somehow messed up lifting the rope and clipping into the mussy hooks from your own anchor draws, with the chance the rope gets flipped over the mussy hook gates unknowingly while you're on the ground watching beta clips on Instagram. Both are super unlikely, but at least one of them you have some control over. 

The human condition is real. Doesn't take a low IQ person to have low probability shit happen.
As has been stated, evidence supports change overs are where things have gone wrong many times with fatal results. That's a fact despite accidents have happened with fixed anchor gear.....they are not equal.
So an easy place to mitigate accidents but somehow that's bad for the community?

I don't think anyone is supporting not learning the skills and techniques for how to be safe when changing over at various anchors, I guess I just don't understand your seeming disdain for anchors with mussy hooks (and maybe other lower off anchors).

Brandon Rwrote:

 And there are definitely going to be people less likely to want to donate that money/time/effort once they see the attitudes displayed here are how their time/money/effort are valued. 

I think you vastly overestimate the influence a MP thread has over "people" in general. I'm curious, have you donated a lot of money in the past for bolt and anchor replacement? How much? Did this thread make YOU decide not to donate money, labor, or gear going forward? 

A whole lot of misunderstanding of what I actually wrote going on here. Too many for me to address (and I'm about to be locked out)... I urge some of you to re-read what I wrote if you're genuine in your attempts to understand my position. In general, I advocate for LESS of a NEED for hardware replacement, thus less waste of time/money/effort for the people doing the replacements. I want to lessen the burden on those giving their time/effort/money by making what's there last as long as safely possible. 

I'll leave you with this...

From the ASCA: 

HOW TO CORRECTLY USE LOWER OFF ANCHORS

Anchor hooks and many other lower-offs are not designed to be climbed above. Do not climb above anchors when using only lower offs for protection.

 Do not clip lower off anchors from above and down climb to them when attempting to set up a toprope. This is dangerous and can result in accidently unclipping your rope from the anchor.

When toproping on any fixed anchors, only the last climber should lower directly on the lowering hardware to increase the working life of the wear part. Use personal gear to toprope up until the final climber lowers.

When the final climber reaches the anchor they clip into the steel hooks/carabiners, get tension from their belayer, and then clean personal gear that was used for toproping before lowering.

If you are leading the extension to a route with lower offs installed at the first anchor, clip a quickdraw to one of the bolt hangers of the anchor as you pass, not one of the lower offs. 

If there are lower offs on the first pitch of a multi-pitch route you should build your anchor to climb the next pitch above by clipping the bolt hangers or quicklinks with personal gear, not the lower off.

Lower off anchors on popular single pitch routes help to address many common accidents that arise with complacency and high traffic, but still require climbers to pay close attention to their systems. Climbing comes with high consequences if mistakes are made. Always understand the system you are using for protection and weight/re-inspect before you transfer to a new protection system.

Brandon Rwrote:

ASCA and similar organizations, as well as the stewards who donate their time and money to replacing old and worn hardware are a great thing, but how much demand do we really want to put on them? Every set of anchor rings or mussy hooks that needs replaced is time/effort/money that could have been used to replace a bad protection bolt. Look at this route in Yosemite for example. And there are definitely going to be people less likely to want to donate that money/time/effort once they see the attitudes displayed here are how their time/money/effort are valued. 

There's a real misplaced idea of what safety is here too, IMO. You're really just trading out the chance that your 70 IQ cousin that you send up to clean the anchor somehow messed up lifting the rope and clipping into the mussy hooks from your own anchor draws, with the chance the rope gets flipped over the mussy hook gates unknowingly while you're on the ground watching beta clips on Instagram. Both are super unlikely, but at least one of them you have some control over. 

I understand what you wrote, but the fallacy you are making is two fold. 

1. Crag stewardship, whether it be rebolting or replacing anchor hardware, is not zero sum. There is not a finite amount of resources that must be allocated in the best way. If you are concerned that time should be better spent replacing protection bolts, you could easily volunteer and do that or donate more money so those of us that have the skills can have the hardware to do so. It does not have to be an OR, it could easily be an AND. 

2. As I mentioned before, bolting takes much more time than replacing anchor hardware. Rebolting can sometimes take me 1-2 hours per bolt if is a rusted piece of shit that I am trying to reuse the hole on. It requires me bringing a shit ton of gear and usually means it is my only goal for the day. Adding or replacing lower offs takes <5 mins and is usually done just as a day of cragging. In fact I usually have an extra set of hardware when I visit places with known annoying/bad anchors (for example the creek). It is also very straightforward to do and doesn't require the same skills as revolting. Comparing the burden of these 2 things is pretty shaky. 

That being said, if you or anyone else want to save wear on the gear, that's great and you can go ahead. If someone wants to TR through mussies I have put up with my own money (100's of $$ over the past few years) I don't really care. I put them up for people to use them so I don't really care. Thick mussies last so long that if we all just chipped in for 1 set each, none of this would matter. 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

 Thick mussies last so long that if we all just chipped in for 1 set each, none of this would matter. 

I thought Mussy hooks got grooves in them that are sharp, regardless of depth (thickness). Once that sharpness/groove develops, the hooks can damage the rope. So the thickness of the hook is irrelevant if it cuts your rope. Is that not correct?

Thank you for your rebolting and anchor work.

FrankPSwrote:

I thought Mussy hooks got grooves in them that are sharp, regardless of depth (thickness). Once that sharpness/groove develops, the hooks can damage the rope. So the thickness of the hook is irrelevant if it cuts your rope. Is that not correct?

Thank you for your rebolting and anchor work.

The only really sharp ones I have seen have been on 3AM crack at the creek, which were the smaller non-climb tech style. They had about 3/4"+ grooves but were still not that sharp to the point where I would be worried. While they do wear unevenly, they are always worn in the same way so even if they are getting on the sharper side, the rope tends not to run in a bad way against the "sharp" part.

It is much more dangerous on fixed draws below cruxes, because those do get sharp and when you fall on that non-crux draw you can fall on it in a way that is not similar to the way it got worn which I have seen cut rope sheathes.

The mussy hooks from 3AM

Thanks, Connor.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I understand what you wrote, but the fallacy you are making is two fold. 

1. Crag stewardship, whether it be rebolting or replacing anchor hardware, is not zero sum. There is not a finite amount of resources that must be allocated in the best way. If you are concerned that time should be better spent replacing protection bolts, you could easily volunteer and do that or donate more money so those of us that have the skills can have the hardware to do so. It does not have to be an OR, it could easily be an AND. 

2. As I mentioned before, bolting takes much more time than replacing anchor hardware. Rebolting can sometimes take me 1-2 hours per bolt if is a rusted piece of shit that I am trying to reuse the hole on. It requires me bringing a shit ton of gear and usually means it is my only goal for the day. Adding or replacing lower offs takes <5 mins and is usually done just as a day of cragging. In fact I usually have an extra set of hardware when I visit places with known annoying/bad anchors (for example the creek). It is also very straightforward to do and doesn't require the same skills as revolting. Comparing the burden of these 2 things is pretty shaky. 

That being said, if you or anyone else want to save wear on the gear, that's great and you can go ahead. If someone wants to TR through mussies I have put up with my own money (100's of $$ over the past few years) I don't really care. I put them up for people to use them so I don't really care. Thick mussies last so long that if we all just chipped in for 1 set each, none of this would matter. 

As someone who also does his fair share of rebolting and new routing, I couldn't agree more with what Connor said here and want to emphasize again how easy it is to swap out lower-offs. I cannot fathom that anyone who takes the inordinate amount of time to replace bolts, do trail work, or build belay platforms could ever get worked up about slapping on two Mussies. 

-Ignoring any safety considerations & risk tolerance, I think several posters are indeed forgetting that increased convenience at the crag (we're not talking about the Trango Towers here) that doesn't cheapen anyone else's experience is not a bad thing--I think it's great that people no longer need to go through the minor hassle to rethread to lower in many areas. 

-I think it's great that you can lead a pitch, slam your rope through the lower-offs, and, after hitting the ground and assessing your pump level, decide you want to take a TR lap without deciding you must pull the rope and re-lead because the marginal wear from that TR lap is just too much for those poor Mussies to handle. 

-I think it's great a climber who can't complete a pitch can TR half of a route and lower from the fixed hardware without a clean-up lap from someone else being necessary.

It never ceases to amaze me how much unironic moralizing people are able to do about their silly little adult sport of choice. If it makes you feel like a badass to hang a quad on the anchor and then rap to clean it after your party, go right ahead (assuming nobody else is in line). Personally, I'd rather change out the Mussies earlier and save the time for an extra pitch at the end of the day or an extra go on my project.

Here's an anchor I installed yesterday. What do people think of the single ram's horn? I personally like how streamlined the setup is, but I would add a second ram's horn or carabiners if people think lowering from this setup on overhanging terrain would give them the willies.

Matt Miccioliwrote:

...

Here's an anchor I installed yesterday. What do people think of the single ram's horn? I personally like how streamlined the setup is, but I would add a second ram's horn if people think lowering from this setup on overhanging terrain would give them the willies.

For me, lowering would be fine. If I were setting up a TR I would use my own gear and last person would clean and lower. 

I love how this thread has deviated from the OP’s gripe about how a douchenozzle hogged the mussies of an anchor that is shared by 3 diff routes (with parties on each route). 

Christian Heschwrote:

I love how this thread has deviated from the OP’s gripe about how a douchenozzle hogged the mussies of an anchor that is shared by 3 diff routes (with parties on each route). 

Never squander an opportunity for some feedback from a captive audience.

Peter Croftwrote:

I am one of those rude and selfish climbers who TRs off the Mussys. Not only that but I even encourage complete strangers to be rude and selfish as well. There are a number of reasons for this.        I climb a lot at the Owens River Gorge where Mussys have been used since the 90s and I have yet to see a set that I wouldn't use due to wear.

So we're all to behave using YOUR perspective, and what you have seen?.  Got it.

 Worn yes, but always with more metal remaining than a normal lightweight biner.

The amount of metal left isn't the issue. The issue is the sharp edges that occur as a result of that wear.

 If that seems too risky then taking a leader fall on a single draw should seem suicidal.

Not if it's not worn and still has a radiused edge on it.  It just dawned on me.  You're NOT Peter Croft.

 Also, given that a Mussy (or its' equivalent) costs about as much as a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Starbucks I would argue that these anchors are very cheap

Cool, when the ones where I live get worn and sharp, I'll send you a bill.

 - and when you factor in that at least in Owens they appear to last over 20 years and the latte lasts maybe 10 minutes then Mussys are the screaming deal of the century.. 

I don't think cost is the issue.  

The argument that it's lazy to TR through the anchors doesn't make it wrong.

No, it just makes it partially wrong.  What makes it really wrong is that by being lazy, you're contributing to an org or a developer having to spend more time and $$ sooner than they would have to replace, and also inexperienced climbers are letting their soft goods get weighted over sharp edges is probably the primary concern.  If everyone used their own gear and then only used the mussies for lowering, they'd last a lot longer and be in better shape for their original intended purpose, which isn't top roping.

 Is it lazy to hardly ever do pushups while watching cartoons?

False equivalence.  Cartoons aren't going to leave a mangled, groaning body at the bottom of a route.  

 Ok, then call me lazy! 

You're lazy.

And saying that everyone should know how to clean a station or they shouldn't be climbing at the crag is not only creepy elitist but also unrealistic.

Right.  Just like expecting all climbers to know what borderline unusable fixed gear looks like.  You're now arguing against your own point.

 It is a truism in climbing (and other things) that  the more steps you put into a system necessarily means the more people are likely to screw up.

Right, which is why, in my climbing career, I've seen the "standard" go from rappelling to being lowered off of sport routes and the advent of hardware that facilitates that aim.  I would argue that knowing how to clean is a necessary skill to have to climb outside period.  You know, like belaying.

 I've witnessed three separate situations where the last person to TR messed up the anchor cleaning and ended up completely untied and untethered.

Because people don't know how to develop skills that will save their own lives doesn't = go ahead and prematurely wear the gear that everyone else uses to do things properly.  This is nonsensical and non-sequitur.  

 The only reason I was aware of this is because I happened  to be on an adjacent route at or above the level of the climber. Each time I was able to talk them through a process they clearly just didn't get. Bottom line - the more complicated you make climbing the more bad (usually horrible) accidents will occur.

Sorry, but this is just pure bullshit.  Anything above "tie in and top rope on fixed gear and get lowered off" is asking for horrible accidents?   Please allow me to turn this around.  Not knowing that climbing is dangerous and not learning the prerequisite skills for climbing anywhere outside will likely result in more horrible accidents.  You're talking like cleaning a sport route is like mastering quadratic equations.  It is not.  

 With the huge influx of insanely strong  but (sometimes) anchor-ignorant gym climbers it's more important than ever to try keep the crags accident-free. No matter what, we all screw up now and then so idiot-proofing is good for all of us!

Yeah, I see strongbois all the time that can't belay worth a shit either.  Should we just say "that's ok, you're inexperienced, go ahead and crater that person or spike them off the wall, it's not your fault."  NO.

Lastly, the argument that TR-ing through Mussys isn't completely safe, while true,

You should have just stopped there and asked for forgiveness for the rest of the bullshit you said.

 doesn't address the obvious fact that nothing is. I have a friend who once had to abandon a climbing trip and get rushed to the ER due to a sandwich making accident. Luckily he survived!

Oh yay, another false equivalence. Because everything is dangerous we shouldn't mitigate what we can because your friend can't handle a knife correctly.  Nonsense.

Wow! I'm used to making mistakes but this is the first time someone has told me that I'm wrong about absolutely everything - even my name?!? 

Anyway, Jake, I'm very sorry if I made you cranky but could you let me know what my real name is? Because if you're right I'm living in the wrong house!

Peter Croftwrote:

Wow! I'm used to making mistakes but this is the first time someone has told me that I'm wrong about absolutely everything - even my name?!? 

Anyway, Jake, I'm very sorry if I made you cranky but could you let me know what my real name is? Because if you're right I'm living in the wrong house!

Existential take down on Mountian Project! Alpine demerits all around 

In case you come back here, Hi Peter!

I've been told quite a few times here that I am wrong. There was even a thread started by a guy with a specific question about whether or not he would be able to climb specific moderate routes in The Valley with a 40m rope. I gave him specific answers regarding the routes in question. The know it alls jumped on saying how wrong I was and he needed to get a 60. Rather pissed me off and I deleted my account, which I didn't realize was going to take my route contributions etc. C'est la vie. I can understand a little bit because I am not exactly Peter Croft either,  but at least people ought to read what the f'n opening post says.

I'm assuming this is Peter, kinda sounds like you,  I hope you are doing really great!

@jakejones When you find yourself at the pearly gates; That comment will be your defining transgression as you are denied entry into rock heaven.

The gods do not look kindly upon that tone pointed at one of their own.

Jake might win all time confidently incorrect.

Jason Pirolowrote:

@jakejones When you find yourself at the pearly gates; That comment will be your defining transgression as you are denied entry into rock heaven.

The gods do not look kindly upon that tone pointed at one other own.

Jones is gonna double down. Lol

I do have to say, it's kind of cringy that Peter Croft's first post has so many likes, when others take his same position, but said it much better and have far fewer likes. Is this just a case of celebrity worship? Also odd that that opinion is at complete odds with the ASCA, arguably the most knowledgeable source concerning replacing bad hardware.