TR-ing on Mussy Hooks Cool in Yosemite?

Some low use areas the developers encourage TRing through the mussies. There are a couple high use areas where the developers encourage it as well, though this is very rare. 

The long and short of it is that if you are explicitly encouraged to do it then it's acceptable. If this has not been explicitly stated (as is true of 99% of high use areas such as the lower falls amphitheater) then it is solidly a douchenozzle thing to do. 

Armando Cordoves Jrwrote:

I was climbing at Lower Falls Amp last weekend and got into a fairly heated discussion with a climber who insisted on TR-ing off mussy hooks which pertained to all three….. "that's what they're there for; they are not cold shuts/rings. they are meant to be TR'd off of."

Thankfully more than enough people have chimed in with the obvious, that the TR hero was/is a douchenozzle and this douche is 100% incorrect.

When I pushed back that 1. there were multiple (very popular) routes on this anchor, which would 3x the wear and 2. it was poor form to monopolize the anchor that is intended for lowering other parties, the dude had a conniption.

Both are correct and true.

Am I missing something here? Is it not the ethic in Yos to never TR on fixed gear?

As several have also mentioned, lowering  would be just fine. Set your own two draws, TR as long as you want (more than 1 lap w people waiting = douchecanoe), and last person clips mussies, calls take, cleans two draws, calls for lower. Ain’t rocket surgery, as they say.

The ethics are certainly modernizing to a degree in the valley (hell, there’s mussies on the Nose nowadays), but common sense courtesy is never going out of style. I suspect that was your actual question but not phrased as such due to space constraints in the headline. Kudos to you for taking the high road. 

Climbers are not immune from "Vacation Mode", the feeling of being exempt from rules and decency because, after all, it is your vacation you spent your time and money on. Yosemite is particularly bad in this regard.

ok really though, where have y'all been getting your mussies?

Sadly I have trouble finding ClimbTech's site, did Karl stop distributing? I never figured out how to access E-rigger.  My favorite tractor supply has been out of stock for a long time.

The point, to me, is monopolizing the route/lowering route. Much more than "wear on the hardware." 

Andrew Ricewrote:

The point, to me, is monopolizing the route/lowering route. Much more than "wear on the hardware." 

This is correct 

Andrew Ricewrote:

The point, to me, is monopolizing the route/lowering route. Much more than "wear on the hardware." 

I agree but I've seen so many of them get worn through that I personally just use my own draws with locking biners with steel inserts. Maybe the wear is more common in places like the ORG than with good granite like in the Valley but I've seen worn thru Mussy's in Pine Creek and Rock Creek as well.

 It takes 2 seconds to clip into the Mussys and 10 seconds to install my own gear.  Even at my age I can spare the extra 8 seconds. The exception would be when I'm climbing with a beginner and they are going to clean gear and lower. Then I don't want them even going near the anchor.

phylp phylpwrote:

I agree but I've seen so many of them get worn through that I personally just use my own draws with locking biners with steel inserts. Maybe the wear is more common in places like the ORG than with good granite like in the Valley but I've seen worn thru Mussy's in Pine Creek and Rock Creek as well.

 It takes 2 seconds to clip into the Mussys and 10 seconds to install my own gear.  Even at my age I can spare the extra 8 seconds. The exception would be when I'm climbing with a beginner and they are going to clean gear and lower. Then I don't want them even going near the anchor.

Oh, I do the same. I'm just saying that hogging a busy anchor is douchy, whether he was putting extra draws on it or not. Top roping through mussy's is a style foul more than one of substance. You're probably right, too, about it being location based. I've seen badly worn mussy's in Malibu Creek where peoples' ropes get really gritty and, also, there's tons of use. But they also get replaced pretty often. 

I am one of those rude and selfish climbers who TRs off the Mussys. Not only that but I even encourage complete strangers to be rude and selfish as well. There are a number of reasons for this.        I climb a lot at the Owens River Gorge where Mussys have been used since the 90s and I have yet to see a set that I wouldn't use due to wear. Worn yes, but always with more metal remaining than a normal lightweight biner. If that seems too risky then taking a leader fall on a single draw should seem suicidal. Also, given that a Mussy (or its' equivalent) costs about as much as a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Starbucks I would argue that these anchors are very cheap - and when you factor in that at least in Owens they appear to last over 20 years and the latte lasts maybe 10 minutes then Mussys are the screaming deal of the century.. 

The argument that it's lazy to TR through the anchors doesn't make it wrong. Is it lazy to hardly ever do pushups while watching cartoons? Ok, then call me lazy! And saying that everyone should know how to clean a station or they shouldn't be climbing at the crag is not only creepy elitist but also unrealistic. It is a truism in climbing (and other things) that  the more steps you put into a system necessarily means the more people are likely to screw up. I've witnessed three separate situations where the last person to TR messed up the anchor cleaning and ended up completely untied and untethered. The only reason I was aware of this is because I happened  to be on an adjacent route at or above the level of the climber. Each time I was able to talk them through a process they clearly just didn't get. Bottom line - the more complicated you make climbing the more bad (usually horrible) accidents will occur. With the huge influx of insanely strong  but (sometimes) anchor-ignorant gym climbers it's more important than ever to try keep the crags accident-free. No matter what, we all screw up now and then so idiot-proofing is good for all of us!

Lastly, the argument that TR-ing through Mussys isn't completely safe, while true, doesn't address the obvious fact that nothing is. I have a friend who once had to abandon a climbing trip and get rushed to the ER due to a sandwich making accident. Luckily he survived!

Kevin Crumwrote:

ok really though, where have y'all been getting your mussies?

Sadly I have trouble finding ClimbTech's site, did Karl stop distributing? I never figured out how to access E-rigger.  My favorite tractor supply has been out of stock for a long time.

On top of sportbolting.com

Hownot2 also sells them and free shipping at 69$ (nice). 

If everyone needs to “learn how to clean an anchor”  - “learn how to rap”  etc. shouldn’t all climbers also know how to properly replace lower-off anchors? I agree 100% with Croft. 

Use mussy hooks however you want. If your ethics are such that you always TR off of your own gear, it would be a logical conclusion that this type of person would occasionally replace a set or two. If each route got replaced once every ~1000 lowers??? We would be all set. 

I carry a set every time I get out and if there is a route that is begging for some new bling and seems deserving, it takes a five minutes and costs a couple pumpkin spice lattes.

In some situations it makes sense to extend, separate, raise, beef up for group hang dogs, etc. but I would not tolerate anyone making comments about my decision to set up an anchor in any specific way unless they were genuinely concerned for my safety. 

How quickly the popular attitude went from "okay to lower through fixed gear but don't TR through it" to "GROUP TR SESSIONS THROUGH THE MUSSIES!". And we're just gonna pretend that it's "for safety"? I guess we have permission now to leave trash on the ground in Yosemite too, 'cause someone at Facelift next year will pick it up while drinking a pumpkin spice latte or something. 

It's not the "lazy" part that makes it wrong, it's the 'not caring about making our shared resources sustainable' part, the 'not respecting the donation of time/effort/money that other people make for us' part. 

Brandon Rwrote:

How quickly the popular attitude went from "okay to lower through fixed gear but don't TR through it" to "GROUP TR SESSIONS THROUGH THE MUSSIES!". And we're just gonna pretend that it's "for safety"? I guess we have permission now to leave trash on the ground in Yosemite too, 'cause someone at Facelift next year will pick it up while drinking a pumpkin spice latte or something. 

It's not the "lazy" part that makes it wrong, it's the 'not caring about making our shared resources sustainable' part, the 'not respecting the donation of time/effort/money that other people make for us' part. 

I think your sensationalizing a bit there Brandon and your trash analogy I think misses the mark by a lot.

Mussy hooks have been getting gang banged as TR anchors by folks that "know better" and those who don't since they first showed up in climbing areas.
As someone who promotes people TRing through the fixed gear on the routes I put up, I couldn't agree more with Peter. Change overs are where so many accidents happen and there is major evidence to support that.

When I go somewhere new I stick to the old ethic of wear your own gear, and only lower off the fixed gear.I however would not mind this sentiment to change.
If your area is wearing through Mussy hooks at a rapid replacement level (>2/3yrs?), there is likely also stewards whom will replace those components with a little outreach, and *gasp* maybe even will take a donation of spiced lattes (or cash equivalent) to offset their donation of time and steel.
I still teach / tell people that best practice is still to use your own gear to TR despite me personal feelings to the alternative. Change is okay. If I'm ever sketched around worn components, I have leaver biners, stainless QLs, or replacement components with me to get down safe and/or mitigate the issue by replacing.

Support your local developers, ASCA, etc.

If anyone knows of any anchors/bolts/what-have-you that need some love in the Tahoe/gold country area, I'm happy to replace/upgrade worn components at zero charge.

Brandon Rwrote:

How quickly the popular attitude went from "okay to lower through fixed gear but don't TR through it" to "GROUP TR SESSIONS THROUGH THE MUSSIES!". And we're just gonna pretend that it's "for safety"? I guess we have permission now to leave trash on the ground in Yosemite too, 'cause someone at Facelift next year will pick it up while drinking a pumpkin spice latte or something. 

It's not the "lazy" part that makes it wrong, it's the 'not caring about making our shared resources sustainable' part, the 'not respecting the donation of time/effort/money that other people make for us' part. 

Whatever is easier and more convenient for the masses, especially if we can buy and install more gear for them. God bless America right?

E MuuDwrote:

How is  monopolizing a route related to TR'ing off mussy's ? Seem like two separate issues to me.

Ah, the good old “find the one thing I don’t agree with and disregard the rest” trope, classic. It’s like the internet just brings this tendency out in us.

M Mwrote:

Whatever is easier and more convenient for the masses, especially if we can buy and install more gear for them. God bless America right?

So you climb only FAs?

Or is the convenience of someone bolting or cleaning a route okay for you but lower offs are where you draw the line. 

Cleaning a line takes me sometimes multiple days of hard work. If it is bolted it takes sometimes over 100$ of bolts.

Replacing anchor hardware takes me about 3 mins and costs me less than 20$ (at most).

Seems like a weird take lol.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

So you climb only FAs?

Or is the convenience of someone bolting or cleaning a route okay for you but lower offs are where you draw the line. 

Cleaning a line takes me sometimes multiple days of hard work. If it is bolted it takes sometimes over 100$ of bolts.

Replacing anchor hardware takes me about 3 mins and costs me less than 20$ (at most).

Seems like a weird take lol.

Nice flex! I don't believe all crags need to be set up like gyms but if your time and money wants the crags to be just like the gyms for the masses you do you, nobody is stopping you. 

M Mwrote:

Nice flex! I don't believe all crags need to be set up like gyms but if your time and money wants the crags to be just like the gyms for the masses you do you, nobody is stopping you. 

You are correct that people like you aren't stopping me. I just find it ironic that the people who I have seen complain the most about wear on fixed gear are people who aren't actually replacing said fixed gear. 

Nobody is stopping you from not using said fixed gear. Just like no one is stopping you from trying to puff out your chest about not being a gym bro.

ASCA and similar organizations, as well as the stewards who donate their time and money to replacing old and worn hardware are a great thing, but how much demand do we really want to put on them? Every set of anchor rings or mussy hooks that needs replaced is time/effort/money that could have been used to replace a bad protection bolt. Look at this route in Yosemite for example. And there are definitely going to be people less likely to want to donate that money/time/effort once they see the attitudes displayed here are how their time/money/effort are valued. 

There's a real misplaced idea of what safety is here too, IMO. You're really just trading out the chance that your 70 IQ cousin that you send up to clean the anchor somehow messed up lifting the rope and clipping into the mussy hooks from your own anchor draws, with the chance the rope gets flipped over the mussy hook gates unknowingly while you're on the ground watching beta clips on Instagram. Both are super unlikely, but at least one of them you have some control over. 

Bb Cc wrote:

I don’t think those who have died had IQs of 70. Pretty rude?

Nobody has died from the act of clipping into mussy hooks from a properly set up anchor that hangs below the hooks, and it's unlikely anyone ever will. No need to get offended by something that never happened. 

The girl who died recently due to unclipped mussy hooks likely wouldn't have died if there were closed rings for an anchor instead of mussy hooks. Ironically, that incident lends itself more to an argument that mussy hooks are MORE dangerous, with more ways to mess up, than a closed ring system. I love the convenience of mussies, but they come with caveats.  

Edit: if the language of a tiny fraction of my posts on this topic completely obliterates your ability to see the substance of the rest and causes you to make posts focused solely on those words, then who's the real troll here? Gotcha politics are dumb, IMO.