Falling on gear, who does it?

that guy named sebwrote:

I have always had a weird relationship with falling, it's not that I don't trust the gear I just hate the sensation of falling, can't handle the adrenaline makes me feel ill. It's held back my climbing a lot, doesn't matter whether it's sport or trad, bouldering seems to be fine.

Same!  I'm inherently acrophobic and I climb V5/V6 without much issue- I mean multiple tries, for sure, but usually able to send.  Committing to movement above protection (bolts or gear- I'm very confident in the gear I place and have fallen on it with no more fear or apprehension than falling on a bolt) where I'm also experiencing exposure AND a fear of plummeting has definitely held me back.  These fears wane with lots of mileage, but never go away fully.  I'm pushing 50 now and way less focused on climbing and not really focused at all on progressing anymore, so my motivation to attack my weaknesses has waned quite a bit.  I just wanted to comment on this, because it's pertinent to the post, and resonates with me quite strongly.

Mark Websterwrote:

BD did a study years ago: 30% of perfectly placed cams will fail. So, never let just one cam be between you and the hospital. 

Can you link to this study?  Anecdotally, based on the number of falls I have taken and that I have seen or caught, the number of cams that fail is more like 1% or less.

It depends entirely on the situation. If I am in the alpine, my mindset is do not fall. I have several local routes that I try to routinely go to and take practice falls on gear with various pieces and stances; does wonders for the mental game. I highly recommend Hazel Findley's course Flight School, it was really insightful and helpful for building up a good fall practice. 

A lot depends on the size of the cam and/or the quality of the rock, but I seriously doubt that a perfectly placed #1 Camalot in good rock would "fail" (i.e. pull or break out under the kinds of forces generated in a typical leader fall) even 1% of the time. Micro cams (and very large cams)  are more problematic. On their website, BD says: 

"

The way in which cams fail can be different:

1. In the case of the Z4 #0 the range is very limited and the area in contact with the rock is minimal. During testing it is normal to see the lobes shift slightly as the load increases. For the #0 the amount of rotation needed to go from 50% to 0% retraction is minimal causing the cam to fail quickly. The most common failure mode is that the lobes will invert, ripping the cam out of the placement.
2. For meat-size cams in good placements, the typical failure mode is the cable breaking at the thumb loop.
3. For some of the medium sized cams, at 25% retraction, there isn’t much material in contact with the rock, when loaded the aluminum of the cam lobe material shears.
4. For the really big guys, the #7 and #8, in a good placement, the axles can bend, and the lobes can break and sometimes buckle, whereas at 25% retracted, the lobes will buckle every time.  This is amplified with any slight shift or misalignment." 

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_EU/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-big-cams/

Mark Websterwrote:

BD did a study years ago: 30% of perfectly placed cams will fail. So, never let just one cam be between you and the hospital. I avoid falling like the plague. But when climbing at my limit I often have a conversation in my head: 

If a perfectly placed cam failed 30% of the time, BD wouldn't sell many cams and not many people would trad climb. Not many sensible people are going to take a roughly 1/3 chance of failure on any given piece they place. Even from a basic business perspective, do you really think BD would publish a study saying "hey so....our product fails 30% of the time even in ideal conditions"? 

Prove me wrong and post this supposed "study" because I'm absolutely calling complete bullshit on this claim. Anybody can make up a statistic and it's nonsense like this that will spook people who want to learn trad and improve at it. The rest of what you said is fine, but that first line is utter nonsense.

I tend to agree that such a claim sounds specious, yet I'd still be equally skeptical about the 'stats' that any manufacturer makes about the failure rate of their product. That kind of transparency just isn't in the interest of a business model.

in 40+ years of climbing I have had ..

One #3 Chounard silver soldered micro stopper fail. Short fall turned into a  big fall caught by perfectly placed #2 soldered micro wire, Gunks stone. 

One #0 Purple TCU pulled taking a hang, ripped # 6bd stopper out of a flare and stopped on perfect #13 BD stopper. Monster fall. 

One .75 Green camalot pulled out of wet mossy crack. big fall, soft deck caught by bolt. 

Various beaks,hooks and knife blades failed. 

Never had a major injury climbing. In every instance of gear failing I had been climbing well, getting away with many risky adventures and obviously complacent. 

Never had a bolt fail. 

My take away is that if you treat gear like bolts eventually you will get burned. Whether or not you get hurt when it happens depends on Luck and how diligent you are in not putting all your eggs on one piece. 

Mark Websterwrote:

BD did a study years ago: 30% of perfectly placed cams will fail. 

I've heard this same number but I read it was metolius who did this study, I figured it to being down to the harder aluminium they used in their cams. It also reflects the anecdotes I've heard from many people and their metolius cams in low friction rock. 

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

If a perfectly placed cam failed 30% of the time, BD wouldn't sell many cams and not many people would trad climb.

Except, possibly, for those who were happily climbing with the existing gear before cams first appeared and way before there was anything other than 'trad' climbing. But yes; their numbers are decreasing!

Cory Nwrote:

I pretty much only climb in IC and fall all the time when climbing at my limit. I’ve never seen a piece move and this is the first time I have heard this. Curious where/when you have seen this? Every piece I have fallen on has been exactly where I placed it and exactly how I placed it.

The only piece I have ripped was in granite. A blindly placed finger sized cam that ripped with body weight. Serves me right.

I think your personal experience is great empirical evidence for you to continue on as you always have, but this advice (photo above) is taken from the Bloom guidebook. So somebody must believe the cams are untrustworthy in that rock.

Here’s a single data point that has no relevance whatsoever by itself: I once belayed a dude on Air Swedin and caught a real winger onto a 0.3 placed next to the Swedin-Ringle anchor. It held no problem without “skating” or other noticeable wear on the rock. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

But even after that experience, I still place #2s every body length!

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

I hate to be picky - but is that guy's right hand actually a left hand? 

Metelious or someone with metelious cams absolutely had a test in one of the climbing rags back in the 90s or early 2000s that showed some random failures. I have no clue what percentage it was.  

phylp phylpwrote:

I think your personal experience is great empirical evidence for you to continue on as you always have, but this advice (photo above) is taken from the Bloom guidebook. So somebody must believe the cams are untrustworthy in that rock.

I hope Dr Bloom chimes in here, but this is interpreted by me as the rock is soft and cams can rip. This is not saying the rock is slick and cams can slip. I do place about every body length and respect this as the standard of Indian Creek. Not sure what you are referring to in my post? 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Depends. When I was mostly trad climbing I found sport climbs often intimidating because I had to actually climb to the next bolt instead of slamming in a piece right in front of my nose. That's contrary to how most of the chest thumping traddies see themselves but it's often reality. A letter grade or so is completely understandable though. What I don't get is if you look at people's profiles they often list a full grade or even two grades difference. That tells me that they are putting trad climbing on a pedestal and not realizing that it is just climbing with gear. Nothing special about it that should intimidate you as long as it is g rated. 

I use the trad tag for multi pitches, or big investments of climbing.  Ie I would be happy to be the much more experienced multi pitch trad climber up to 5.8.  Am I more conservative on gear absolutely, but is it a huge difference no?  For example if we met up in camp 4 (probably a bad example since Yosemite "sandbag" but hear me out) thats how I think about it.  If we are following or swinging thats closer to my second trad number.  Is it perfect? No! Does everyone use it this way? No! But is it a decent enough way to describe my ability as a climber yes and a lot of climbers I know use it similarity.  Basically whats the level if I barely know you/ don't want to be working the same two moves all day.  

For the people I know, I know them so we can find appropriate routes. 

I took a fairly large winger on a .4 a little ways beneath my feet in a dead vertical granite finger crack this weekend. It was my second attempt of the day, and there’s literally nothing to hit, and it’s granite, so I was more willing to push myself to failure.  Like most have said, it’s pretty route dependent. My willingness to fall on a hard climb or pretty much at my limit  is a combo of ledge potential/ terrain and stone quality. If either of those things are giving me pause, I’m more willing to hang it and figure out sections. That’s kind of the beauty of projecting hard trad; Taking time to figure out the right gear to leave the best holds open, and on the best stone, or in constrictions. It’s maybe my favorite part of trad climbing. Placing a blind piece like your clipping a bolt. Magnifique!

I fell on a bolt once and it caught my fall

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

No memes in the falling on gear thread