Large Groups Sessioning Climbs??

Don’t roast me, I’m out of the scene, but I’m having my mind blown in City of Rocks this weekend as I find any climb that has it’s own anchor on it with a group of 5+ people parked at it for the day. Is this a thing now? Moved away from SLC several years ago and have mostly been alpine climbing since or coming to City of Rocks during the weekdays, but don’t recall this being so prevalent. I’m with my kid so wanted to do a shorter/more moderate climb with him that didn’t require a rappel and was skunked all around. We finally found a promising option with a couple seemingly finishing up an easy trad climb with anchors only to learn that they each intended to do the same climb multiple times. Not mock leading or anything, just re-racking and starting over. I set up a trad anchor on a low angle slab next to it so the kids could climb while we waited… 2 hours later and it was getting dark so skunked again. I have never seen anything like this and am curious if this is the new normal? 

Caveat that the city is a particularly insidious place for this since there are so few climbs with their own anchors. Seems pretty boring to me to drive all the way here and climb 2 climbs, and also seems like an odd place to bring a large group of mostly inexperienced climbers. I find even climbing with 3 in the city to be a nuisance since so many climbs have walk offs or separate rappel stations. I guess I’m old, but am used to 2 or 3 people doing their climb and then moving on the next? With the exception of someone projecting a route I just have not experienced this. 

That would bother me as well. There is a lot of rock there, but to run laps on a classic seems poor taste to me and I wouldn’t expect it either. Its good practice to be accommodating for and communicative with other parties so everyone can have fun. 

Did you ask to get on line? What did they say?

I often find if they’re not too green, and you’re affable enough, they’ll let you get in the rotation, or even let you get in between top ropers if you’re leading, sometimes even offering to let you climb on their ropes/draws.

If they’re a pack of yellow hard hat college kids who are too bright eyed to know any better, and you’re up for being disagreeable, you could press a bit more, while subtly letting them know the ethic. Like “Hey any chance I could climb this in between you guys since I’m leading?” Or “Hey, my kid and I have been hoping to get on this climb since forever but there’s always one big group only toproping when we come. Any chance we could squeeze my kid in?”

City was packed yesterday! I get it, people are wanting to get out for the last good weekend and it is a 3 day weekend for some.

I heard that a group of literally 20 people showed up to one of the popular crags. I think it would be an understandable rule to limit group size, when climbing at poplar areas. In many wilderness zones, a hiking group can not exceed 12 people. I think it would be fair to not exceed 6 people per climbing group. As we (almost) all agree, time spent on a single route per group should also be limited within reason.

I know I know.. all you real climbers just avoid popular crags and climb at your secret wall. 

Very common there sadly.

When I went there it seemed like scowling Utah dads putting the kids on 5.10s like soap on a rope was the thing. But we found plenty of great, open climbing. 

J W wrote:

It’s possible to advocate your ideas for limiting large-group monopolization (not that it’s feasibly achievable at the City at present usage numbers) and also to realize that if you want to climb on a busy day, it’s practical to go off the beaten path.

*secret wall? Is that just an opportunity to get in a mild jab, or have you not noticed that the City has many hundreds of individual formations? They’re almost all good. Nothing secret about it. Find something that looks attractive and climb it. The only reason there aren’t 5,000 officially established routes at the City is because the permit system is a hassle. But the rock is still there, open to anyone who wants to climb it. Close the guidebook for a while (sorry, Dave—I love you!) and look at the rocks.

Edit to add: the problem City ranger staff is trying to solve is how to increase overall visitor numbers.

I did end up going off the beaten path yesterday, and had a great day. 

I was not saying there are secret walls at the city. It was kind of a comment on how the city of rocks is pretty much the only busy climbing area in all of Southern Idaho. And it is kind of a thing around here to have new or secret crags. 

I am well aware of the bolting permit system at the city. I probably should have just left that job out of my post to center the focus on my idea to simply limit group size, as an enforceable rule.

J W wrote:

Chiming in yet again—

For a climber comfortable with traditional protection and a willingness to explore yet-untraveled rock, the City is a staggering untapped treasure trove of 5.5 to 5.9 climbing,

The development crews from the 70s through the 90s were mostly putting up hard lines in bold styles.

Consequently, vast swaths of attractive features have been largely ignored because those strong climbers were busy developing harder stuff.

We have to be mindful of established trails, native vegetation, and the other normal concerns, of course, but the opportunity for uncrowded, slightly adventurous, new traditional routing is immense.

For sure, I am of course aware that there are an almost innumerable number of options in the city, generally speaking. I don’t have issues when I just go with myself and a buddy. This trip I went ahead of my family and climbed with a friend for a couple of days. We didn’t intend to do a significant amount of climbing with the kids once they got there because they are quite young, but my son was crushing it so I wanted to try and get him on at least one legitimate route to see how he would do. He is only five, so it needed to have its own dedicated anchors and can’t be wandering all that much so he’s swinging all over the place while lowering. Doesn’t really matter to me if it’s a trad or sport route, but it was crazy that the 10 routes I had as potential options all had large groups posted up on them with the exception of the last trad route that the couple was apparently going to lap for several hours. We got up early today and were able to snag something. He totally cruised it and had a blast, so the weekend was a win.

My kids five, so wasn’t a huge deal if we couldn’t have made it happen. I truly am just genuinely curious if this is some weird new cultural thing where people dig up 5-10 of their closest non-Climbing friends to go to a climbing location and lap the same route all day.

Climbing has become more and more popular, I have found the ways to avoid crowded crags are:

-go on weekdays or early in the morning

-climb harder grades

-walk further (possibly drive further depending on where you live)

-climb less "classic" things. There are so many obscure great choss piles everywhere. 

Or usually a combination of the above. Hard to do when you have a kid or beginner with you but that's just kind of the game nowadays. 

I haven't been to the city in years but the front range has super mega crowded crags that are an absolute shit show every weekend but I manage to have solitude when I want it by following the above rules.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Did you ask to get on line? What did they say?

Ya, casually inquired with one of the groups if they were just getting started or finishing up and they essentially said they were all going to climb it at least one more time and weren’t sure when they were going to be done. Again, not been my past experience in the climbing community, but perhaps times have changed.

And to others who commented, I definitely know how to avoid people and find obscure climbs. But was surprised to find the one time I had a need for an easier route with a straight forward anchor it was not just busy on a busy weekend but inundated with large groups. My main inquiry was just if this is the new thing in the climbing world because I haven’t seen this going on in the past. Would certainly have been frowned upon a decade ago, but seemed to be the norm. 

lpkzo Owrote:

Ya, casually inquired with one of the groups if they were just getting started or finishing up and they essentially said they were all going to climb it at least one more time and weren’t sure when they were going to be done. Again, not been my past experience in the climbing community, but perhaps times have changed.

Yeah that’s pretty blatant hogging and bad form. If they were just on it they should give others a turn. Even when you go to a climbing gym today, you see people have an innate sense to not hog the wall and give others a turn, whether it’s an auto-belay, or just sitting under a boulder and not letting others try. 

lpkzo Owrote:

Ya, casually inquired with one of the groups if they were just getting started or finishing up and they essentially said they were all going to climb it at least one more time and weren’t sure when they were going to be done. Again, not been my past experience in the climbing community, but perhaps times have changed.

In my opinion, I agree that this is poor form. I get the whole, "if they got there first, they can do as they please" counter argument and all, but to me it's just like...wtf are you doing repeating the same thing over and over if you're clearly not projecting? Beyond that, it's such a basic level of consideration for your fellow climber not to hog a route for hours. 

Proper form would have been them offering to let you jump in. And again, just my 0.02 but if a rope is up and unused for more than 10 minutes, it needs to be pulled and people need to move out of the way for others to get on the route.

+

"I truly am just genuinely curious if this is some weird new cultural thing where people dig up 5-10 of their closest non-Climbing friends to go to a climbing location and lap the same route all day."

I've seen this at Joshua Tree and at Indian Cove a number of times now. Without fail it's on a 5.5-5.7 route (if that) and a group of people stay there all day long. It doesn't impact me at all, but if I was a beginner and my limit was low like that, thereby giving me pretty limited options, I'd be pretty annoyed by this behavior.

The only real issue imo is doing laps when others are waiting. A group with each taking a turn is no different than a line of pairs. In fact if the group is not doing laps, they can be quicker sharing gear than multiple two person teams.

There just is a lot of people and they are spoon fed direction, star ratings and cool photos which consolidate people on the classics. I think it is a little gauche  to run tons of repeats of already high trafficked routes, especially speed ascents in approach shoes (not that I haven't done it myself). Time to move on to explore some of the less popular routes and maybe give them a little re-scrub if they need it to make them more popular. Added benefit of doing FAs - they usually need some initial traffic to buff them up, so some extra laps is a good thing

lpkzo Owrote:

Ya, casually inquired with one of the groups if they were just getting started or finishing up and they essentially said they were all going to climb it at least one more time and weren’t sure when they were going to be done. Again, not been my past experience in the climbing community, but perhaps times have changed.

And to others who commented, I definitely know how to avoid people and find obscure climbs. But was surprised to find the one time I had a need for an easier route with a straight forward anchor it was not just busy on a busy weekend but inundated with large groups. My main inquiry was just if this is the new thing in the climbing world because I haven’t seen this going on in the past. Would certainly have been frowned upon a decade ago, but seemed to be the norm. 

Yep. I have seen the same scenario as you describe both times I have been to Castle Rock State Park (California). And they are rather proprietary about it too. A long time ago in a galaxy far away,  you didn't have to ask. People would invite you and provide the belay for you. Of course there were a lot fewer ppl "competing " for whatever climb.

I could tell from your first post that you weren't green. The first step was to actually read it.

I see arriving to an over-crowded crag as an oversight on my part. I should have picked a less busy time, or a less busy location. Similar to waiting in lift lines at a popular ski resort, once you figure out which areas are crowded and when, it's not that hard to avoid them. 

lpkzo Owrote:

And to others who commented, I definitely know how to avoid people and find obscure climbs. But was surprised to find the one time I had a need for an easier route with a straight forward anchor it was not just busy on a busy weekend but inundated with large groups. My main inquiry was just if this is the new thing in the climbing world because I haven’t seen this going on in the past. Would certainly have been frowned upon a decade ago, but seemed to be the norm. 

I really do wish the city would allow some modernization of the lower grades climbs at places like the bread loaves I feel a lot of this congestion is like you said straight forward anchor are in very limited supply and those ones that do have them get hammered by the people climbing and weirdos from other routes needing to rappel because it’s the only fix anchor for 6-8 routes. There are so many routes there that would see higher traffic volume and help spread folks out. The bread loaves for example has 4 hotspots at all times but there are so many routes on the west side that are perfect for families with small children just trying to provide a experience for their kids they are nothing to write home about but would alleviate some of the hot spots over there. Same for king of the throne. 

The anchor situation at the city is actually very frustrating and I wish It would have some leniency on the bolting rules for placing anchors because there are loads of 2-3 star routes that gather dust because the logistics you have to put in just for a single pitch climb are almost not worth it. Almost :)

Deven Lewiswrote:

I really do wish the city would allow some modernization of the lower grades climbs at places like the bread loaves I feel a lot of this congestion is like you said straight forward anchor are in very limited supply and those ones that do have them get hammered by the people climbing and weirdos from other routes needing to rappel because it’s the only fix anchor for 6-8 routes. There are so many routes there that would see higher traffic volume and help spread folks out. The bread loaves for example has 4 hotspots at all times but there are so many routes on the west side that are perfect for families with small children just trying to provide a experience for their kids they are nothing to write home about but would alleviate some of the hot spots over there. Same for king of the throne. 

The anchor situation at the city is actually very frustrating and I wish It would have some leniency on the bolting rules for placing anchors because there are loads of 2-3 star routes that gather dust because the logistics you have to put in just for a single pitch climb are almost not worth it. Almost :)

Yeah I agree with you on all of the above, especially if the climbing scene has evolved to a the scenario I encountered this weekend being pretty normal. I can’t for the life of me fathom how it’s fun for 1 or 2 competent climbers to play tour guide for 5+ inexperienced friends, but to each their own. In general I am not about throwing bolts all over everything but when you look at Steinfell’s Dome and climbs like Bath Time it’s hard to understand whar ethics we are following. Bolts all over one area and no anchor for 10 climbs 100 yds down. Having a host of people rail on the same 4 anchor’s over and over seems less than ideal too. 

Eric Craigwrote:

Yep. I have seen the same scenario as you describe both times I have been to Castle Rock State Park (California). And they are rather proprietary about it too. A long time ago in a galaxy far away,  you didn't have to ask. People would invite you and provide the belay for you. Of course there were a lot fewer ppl "competing " for whatever climb.

I could tell from your first post that you weren't green. The first step was to actually read it.

Ha ha, right? Clearly reading is hard for some. I am very much enjoying being mansplained how to find uncrowded routes though! Or how I need to quit my job and take my kid out of school so that it’s possible for me to take him climbing. i’m just waiting for someone to tell me that I need to reverse cycle and start climbing in the middle of the night. Perhaps their energy would be better directed at informing newbs that climbing more than one route in a day is fun, learning how to lead climb and clean routes is a foundational part of climbing, and that taking over an entire route for an entire day is somewhat frowned upon

lpkzo Owrote:

Ha ha, right? Clearly reading is hard for some. I am very much enjoying being mansplained how to find uncrowded routes though! Or how I need to quit my job and take my kid out of school so that it’s possible for me to take him climbing. i’m just waiting for someone to tell me that I need to reverse cycle and start climbing in the middle of the night. Perhaps their energy would be better directed at informing newbs that climbing more than one route in a day is fun, learning how to lead climb and clean routes is a foundational part of climbing, and that taking over an entire route for an entire day is somewhat frowned upon

The advice you received from many was quite reasonable and to the point, hardly "mansplained".

First, another good piece of advice is that being more assertive tends to work wonders in communicating your intentions and getting what you want.

For example:

"Hey my son and I would like to get on X route today, could we figure out how to work in?"

will net much more success than something like

"Hey what is the line on this?"

or

"what are your plans for the day?"

All of these certainly work better than complaining on the internet, which in my experience has about a 0% success rate. I see many people being too timid in person about this and then complaining on the internet after the fact.

Second, the reason you are getting these responses is that popular climbs are... popular. Big groups are not a problem with the crowding of routes, the routes are just popular. 6 parties of 2 is the same as one group of 12 (in fact a group of 12 is probably faster with not having to clean between groups). What your post really reads like between the lines is that you want the climbs you wanted to get on to have fewer people on it. Can you maybe consider the reasons why you wanted to do these routes are the same reasons why many others want to get on these routes. This is why typically the advice given in these scenarios is to pick less popular or classic climbs if you want fewer people on them. Especially on busy holiday weekends.

Third, you are hardly the first person to bring up this topic. Have you considered that not all responses in a thread are only targeted to be read by you? Have you considered that others who look at the thread topic might also benefit from the responses? Maybe next time you should use your self assessed superior reading skills and use the search bar to read the previous countless threads on the topic before posting.

I will say that hogging a route by doing multiple laps with people in line is incredibly bad form and again I have had good luck with being assertive about my desire to get on the route. But then again I am not self centered enough to expect easy classics to be empty on long weekends and am willing to go find something else to climb.

Happy climbing.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

The advice you received from many was quite reasonable and to the point, hardly "mansplained".

First, another good piece of advice is that being more assertive tends to work wonders in communicating your intentions and getting what you want.

For example:

"Hey my son and I would like to get on X route today, could we figure out how to work in?"

will net much more success than something like

"Hey what is the line on this?"

or

"what are your plans for the day?"

All of these certainly work better than complaining on the internet, which in my experience has about a 0% success rate. I see many people being too timid in person about this and then complaining on the internet after the fact.

Second, the reason you are getting these responses is that popular climbs are... popular. Big groups are not a problem with the crowding of routes, the routes are just popular. 6 parties of 2 is the same as one group of 12 (in fact a group of 12 is probably faster with not having to clean between groups). What your post really reads like between the lines is that you want the climbs you wanted to get on to have fewer people on it. Can you maybe consider the reasons why you wanted to do these routes are the same reasons why many others want to get on these routes. This is why typically the advice given in these scenarios is to pick less popular or classic climbs if you want fewer people on them. Especially on busy holiday weekends.

Third, you are hardly the first person to bring up this topic. Have you considered that not all responses in a thread are only targeted to be read by you? Have you considered that others who look at the thread topic might also benefit from the responses? Maybe next time you should use your self assessed superior reading skills and use the search bar to read the previous countless threads on the topic before posting.

I will say that hogging a route by doing multiple laps with people in line is incredibly bad form and again I have had good luck with being assertive about my desire to get on the route. But then again I am not self centered enough to expect easy classics to be empty on long weekends and am willing to go find something else to climb.

Happy climbing.

These are some great points Connor, but unfortunately I’m not actually interested in solutioning my problem, and I’ve reported your post. 

Second, the reason you are getting these responses is that popular climbs are... popular. Big groups are not a problem with the crowding of routes, the routes are just popular. 6 parties of 2 is the same as one group of 12 (in fact a group of 12 is probably faster with not having to clean between groups). What your post really reads like between the lines is that you want the climbs you wanted to get on to have fewer people on it. Can you maybe consider the reasons why you wanted to do these routes are the same reasons why many others want to get on these routes. This is why typically the advice given in these scenarios is to pick less popular or classic climbs if you want fewer people on them. Especially on busy holiday weekends.

Which is my point, if this is your take away you are misunderstanding what I asked entirely. If I wanted to know how to find climbs on a busy weekend, that is what I would have asked. But I did not ask that, I asked if climbing in large inexperienced groups is becoming the norm or was just a COR anomaly this weekend. Simple as that. It was weird to find only one climb out of 10 with only 2 people on it and even more weird that those 2 were going to do it over and over. That has never been my cragging experience in the past, and I lived in SLC for 15 yrs. Crowded spots are not new to me, but not even really having the option to wait in line a reasonable amount of time was surprising. But, no major skin off my back, I did all my climbing on Thursday and Friday morning without issue before the fam came. And I got my kid on his 1 climb early the next morning. Again, that wasn’t the point or the question I was asking. 

You’re nuts if you think a large group (especially of inexperienced climbers) moves faster than groups of two, but then again I’ve never seen a line of 6 different pairs of climbers queued up for a single climb. When that day comes perhaps I’ll change my mind.

David Skudra wrote:

These are some great points Connor, but unfortunately I’m not actually interested in solutioning my problem, and I’ve reported your post

There was never a problem to solution anyways. I asked: climbing in big groups:  Is this a thing now? Are we seeing this all over the place or is this unique to COR and it’s errant anchor situation? If it’s unique to COR then I suppose yes there may be some solutions the park could consider. If this is everywhere these days, tough nuts, the culture has changed. 

…And then I got told by several people how to find not busy climbs. Which is funny because I didnt stop climbing when I left SLC, I just started climbing in not busy places or at not busy times. Evidently I do know how to do that. And this, my friends, is the definition of mansplaining- answering a question I didn’t ask, to a problem I am well aware of the solutions to, in the usual condescending way and a wee bit of my favorite climbing adage “have you considered being a better climber?”

Anywho, I’m going to slink back to my “secret” spots and weekday warrioring. Thanks to those that answered the question I asked, I was interested in a cultural discussion on that topic if it is in fact the new way.  There are numerous climbing “rules” and ethics that have and undoubtedly will continue to evolve with time. I always find the discussions surrounding that super interesting (why I love the runout podcast). I’ll try and do better next time with my question posing. I am thrilled to see that the culture at MP has remained steadfast. 

Cheers.
-selfish East Idahoan