New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #31

Carl, is that a hang glider on top of your car??? Or some sort of comfy Bedouin tent, maybe? Sounds like a great trip. 

Here's the Aurora from last night over my house in Poughkeepsie.  Mara and I were sitting inside oblivious and didn't see it.  A neighbor took the picture.  Everyone says the colors as captured by a camera are considerably more saturated than what we see with our eyes,  Since I wasn't outside to see the real thing, I'm going with the picture as my reality. (Not to verge on the political, but personal realities are all the rage today and I want a piece of the action.)

Lori, in my experience, Scarpa's lasts have wider toe boxes and are more comfortable than La Sportiva's if your foot isn't narrow.  TC Pros always hurt my feet but I get along fine with Scarpa Boostics, fitted pretty tight for an old guy.  For pressure points and just-a-hair-too-tight fit, I've found a shoe stretcher to be very helpful.  Scarpa has recently come out with a TC-Pro competitor called the Generator, which might be a good option.  Another good wide-ish last is Acopa. I wore the shoe they now call the Legend for a few years and it was pretty comfortable. If width is the problem, then worth considering with any shoe is to avoid the woman's model if there is a choice.

Daniel Joderwrote:

Carl, is that a hang glider on top of your car??? Or some sort of comfy Bedouin tent, maybe? Sounds like a great trip. 

It’s a tent. Great tent. Best tent ever. Everyone says it’s the best tent ever. We, they we did the BEST tents. We did one million eight hundred and nineteen million trillion. Great tent.
For the stopover in Hay I’m in my single man tent, two mattresses, one of those thin waffle mats and an inflatable hiking mattress. -8C sleeping bag plus a sleeping bag liner.
I’ve pitched my tent in the entirely wrong spot, right next to the pool, fire pit and camp kitchen. Silly me.

Thank you, rgold , Allan and others for your thoughts on shoes.  There has been so much emphasis on finding the perfect rubber, whatever acts like Velcro on the rock, and I just assumed I had to tolerate the fit.  I really appreciate being directed to some wider shoe choices and I will start here at Nomads and then check out REI today.

Bob told me about “Morton’s Toe”, which is when the second toe is longer than the big toe. Mine is not as dramatic as some pictures I’ve seen, but I can understand why the conventional pointy climbing shoe is crushing my second toe. So this is pretty exciting really to think I might find a shoe that is healthier for my feet.

—-

I am thinking about endorphins this morning a bit. Having had 3 to 4 months pretty much off climbing I have some new noticings being back on rock. The main one is that climbing is a full brain workout and while it’s incredibly difficult (for me) the residue for days following is pretty amazing. Maybe that’s why some people call climbing “Type 2” fun— more fun the day after.  

Not only do I feel more joy for days after a good hard climb, but I am finding that my brain is  sharper today BY FAR than it was five years ago when I was working hard behind a desk. I have taken a Cognitive Assessment annually since 2008 through Staying Sharp, an AARP program… And every year since moving here those various functions—memory , decision making, maze management —have improved 30% or more. Go figure!  

But I really think it’s what Bob alluded to this week – – – Climbing requires enormous fast decision-making, very fast reflexes, mindbody coordination, steely intention, and in a way that you cannot manufacture in an office or a gym. Climbing is great for brain health and an endorphin high. 

—

But it’s also made me selfish.    IMO Trespassers Wall is now mine.  I probably hiked into that area 20 times to study the wall and try to sort out the various routes. I’ve never seen anyone climb there. It’s a little bit dangerous and it certainly is beautiful and unique. I’ve seen ferns and critters back there that I haven’t seen anywhere else in the desert.  I am determined to finish the route I worked on last year, Torturer’s Apprentice.

Last night, I got this innocent note from a friend:

Someone is climbing my wall in the dark?  So I’m going to rush right over there this morning and see if I can catch the culprit.  Or maybe convince him/her to take me with next time they try that.   

Carl—is this a cross-country trip?  I haven’t pulled out a map yet to track your journey, how many miles is it?  Hope you have a wonderful time. I’m sure you will become best friends with every human you meet there, because that’s just you.  Lots of pictures please!  

Lori Milaswrote:

I am thinking about endorphins this morning a bit. Having had 3 to 4 months pretty much off climbing I have some new noticings being back on rock. The main one is that climbing is a full brain workout and while it’s incredibly difficult (for me) the residue for days following is pretty amazing. Maybe that’s why some people call climbing “Type 2” fun— more fun the day after.  

Not only do I feel more joy for days after a good hard climb, but I am finding that my brain is  sharper today BY FAR than it was five years ago when I was working hard behind a desk. I have taken a Cognitive Assessment annually since 2008 through Staying Sharp, an AARP program… And every year since moving here those various functions—memory , decision making, maze management —have improved 30% or more. Go figure!  

it’s good you feel good.

After a hard day of climbing I generally feel drained, sore and ready to go directly into a meditative state for days following. Maybe that’s too much of a “hard day”?  

But I really think it’s what Bob alluded to this week – – – Climbing requires enormous fast decision-making, very fast reflexes, mindbody coordination, steely intention, and in a way that you cannot manufacture in an office or a gym. Climbing is great for brain health and an endorphin high. 

There’s definitely something to this “healthy mind and body” bit. Climbing even indoors has helped me at my work as well.

I was about to throw in the towel and retire early, but starting to climb again has rejuvenated my brain cells to the point I can nearly keep up with the 25-35 year old software types.  

BTW, if you don’t need to, there’s no point taking cognitive tests. You’re writing certainly doesn’t indicate any need for that.

I flew into the Northeast Wyoming Regional Airport (Gillette, WY) last Thursday night. I was among about 30 passengers on a 50 passenger Canadair jet. Before we began our descent into the smoke from fires burning west of here, the pilots flew a loop so everyone aboard could get a look at the aurora. It was quite a sight from 28,000 feet up. Stunning, in fact. The pilot said we were over Montana because we had to approach the airport from the north. I tried to capture an image with my phone but it didn't workout.

Did this boulder up on a mountain way out in the woods, V5 from the sit I think.  My brother almost sent his new 5.12 route, stuck but couldn’t hold the last hold at the end of the hard climbing.   Low 50’s, no humidity and sunny.  We have a lot of crap weather, but when it is good it’s good!

Nice, Ward!  So you were just wandering around in the woods and encountered this boulder?

What’s that saying “ I haven’t failed. I’ve just found 1000 ways that don’t work.“?  I finally found my way to compassion of the elephants. I thought I found it last week, but was off by quite a bit. The Journey alone is so worth it – I feel like I could go back in there with a biology class.

Bob was absolutely right. This is not a convenient route in any way.  There’s definitely no place to hang out at the base. But oh my my!  Now I see what all the fuss is about. The route has every kind of mixed moves and a variety of features and it’s such a beauty!

I don’t know what the deal is for me… Why it was so important and satisfying to head out alone, to be in an area where I might never be found, and to so thoroughly enjoy the steps getting there.

You have to carefully cross a number of unstable rocks and boulders.

There’s a lot of Manzanita and scrub oak to walk-through

there is a shrine to visit

Eventually, you encounter a very large boulder. I “think” you wiggle up this to get on your route. Or maybe you face climb the boulder.  

Look up and VOILA!   

So the short of it is, I could easily spend a year just working on this one wall.  We have 800,000 acres to roam on… but I like this wall. If you get bored on this side, you have an even better wall on the other side.  

I decided to have a beach day yesterday, but had to make it work in Steve Canyon.  

Li Hu… glad Climbing helps you on the job! I don’t take cognitive test because I have to, I think they’re really fun and sure give you a base of understanding. I have taken these at the end of a long day at work and really get overwhelmed. there is a memorization test – – see how many of a string of numbers you can remember. There were times I couldn’t get past four.  Give me a seven digit phone number to remember, and I would lose it immediately. Kind of scary! Or a string of 20 random words and see how many you can remember 30 minutes later. I ace those tests now.  My mom did crossword puzzles until she was 102. She might like Wordle today.

No Lori, this is our cliff that nobody knows about.  I finally dragged a crash pad an hour up the mountain to do this.  The cliff is the attraction, but the boulders down below are very interesting.

Ward Smithwrote:

Did this boulder up on a mountain way out in the woods, V5 from the sit I think.  My brother almost sent his new 5.12 route, stuck but couldn’t hold the last hold at the end of the hard climbing.   Low 50’s, no humidity and sunny.  We have a lot of crap weather, but when it is good it’s good!

Can’t say for sure the grade, but it looks to be a fun and difficult problem!

Cool!

Ward. Is that up on Mt WishIcouldtellya? 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Ward. Is that up on Mt WishIcouldtellya? 

Which Mt. WishIcouldtellya---there are undoubtedly a few of them???

This article may be of interest to folks here. It’s the British sense of humor in the comments following the article that I really enjoy.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/oct/13/why-everything-you-think-about-living-to-100-might-be-wrong

it was too cold and windy to talk Isa into climbing yesterday. We opted for a ridge hike. Pre placed two cars so we could do a loop and not have to backtrack. Climbed a little mountain

Hiked down the other side and along a ridge

had a nice view of the cliff above Lac Willoughby where the world renowned ice climbing is. 

gently up to another ridge

found the summit of Mt Hor. dang skiers stole the sign

and the Mt Hor lookout

broke out the headlamps and another 3 miles down hill to the van. About 7 miles total? 

Lori Milaswrote:

So as regards aging… I get the feeling most here are healthy enough and strong enough that you will just wing it all the way. But not only have I had to take some extraordinary measures due to health concerns, but I am just plainly curious and interested about our bodies as we age.

So… Is anyone interested in or have any experience with peptides like CJC – 1295,  or BCP-157?  How about red light therapy?  NAD?  Hormones?  High or low protein diets. Recovery drinks?

Lori,

I've been watching the longevity space for 15+ years. I was especially curious about calorie restriction. I didn't actively try that, but I already have a poor appetite, anyway. I'm also really picky about food and actively dislike most junk food. So I might have been doing some calorie restriction accidentally. I sleep well. Eating good food and sleeping well probably outweigh all the other stuff when it comes to longevity.

I started paying attention to Bryan Johnson about a year ago. I tried his packaged Blueprint formula, but couldn't tolerate it, so I gave up soon. I'm tempted to try Novos.

As part of Blueprint, I started exercising daily over 6 months ago. I think that's doing something good. I feel better (both mentally and physically). However, now winter is approaching, so we'll see if that lasts. Also, I have to be careful not to overdo it with daily exercise, since I'm prone to tendon issues. Other Blueprint things that I do: go to bed like clockwork at the same time every day, get lots of sleep. Try as much as possible to eat my last meal 3 or more hours before going to sleep. Bryan reports that his last meal is at 11 AM, and I'd be curious to try earlier dinners.

Re NAD, NMN, NR: I had looked into these briefly but never did enough research to convince myself to try them (I see plenty of people claiming N=1 benefits). Red light therapy: no, seems scammy. Hormones: I think they are counterindicated for me, so haven't looked into it. Peptides: haven't looked into them at all.

Protein: I've been aiming for higher daily doses of protein for over 6 months (1.5 to 2 g per kg bodyweight), and I think it has been helpful, but I have no quantitative evidence for it.

I'm not necessarily interested in living to 100, since I don't think I'll be able to climb at that age. OTOH if I could take a supplement that would help me climb for longer, I'd take it. If I can climb for the next 20 years - even really easy stuff - I can probably die happy. So my main focus is trying to stay free of injuries that might stop me from being mobile every single day. And it appears to me that ain't easy, the older you get. Climbing probably doesn't help in that respect, since it's too easy to get injured. And there are lots of things that can take you out as you age, even if you avoid Peter Attia's four horsemen.

BTW the latest new thing is Klotho, which increases with exercise. But then, maybe it's correlation and not causation.

So what's your current stack? I only supplement with calcium + Vit D + K2 (New Chapter Bone Strength), Omega-3 fish oil (might help the eyes), biotin, protein.

Great information dragons and Lori. 

It seems like more sleep and higher quality food in smaller quantities may be better for us? I get about 7-8 hours a night of decent sleep and occasionally nap when exerted mentally or physically.

Sleep is possibly the most important thing?

Todd Berlier wrote:

I don't have this issue in the Sierra. Either my stuff looks like shit to the outside world, or there's no scarcity driving folks, or no one cares about FAs.

Agree, 99% of climbers don’t really care, the 1% are writing books I suppose? It’s also fun reading anecdotes of climbs, but I’m not sure writing those requires a FA claim to be verified?

Bottom line is most people consider climbing as a fun activity, sport or otherwise? I do it cause I enjoy the movements. My latest climbing buddy for mental health.   

hey dragons!  Nice to see you here!  Where have you been, and how have you been?  

I have to admit I'm a bit frustrated right now over health and energy--in fact, I'm just purely feeling defeated.  I guess it's important to stop once in awhile and appreciate the level of fitness we are trying to achieve here.  It's NOT the norm.  Also, my own experience is likely not anyone else's because my health issues greatly impact my workouts and energy.

My 'stack' changes based upon most recent lab work.  I take a multiple vitamin/mineral daily.  I add to that vitamins A,D,K,E (because I was deficient in all those fat soluable vitamins).  I take a supp called Carotomax 2x a week... it has lycopene, lutein, astaxanthin, and a few others required for eye and skin health (and brain health).  Here in the desert I developed dry eye, and dry sinuses, so I have added 3,000 IU fish oil/Omega 3 daily.  

My eyes and skin react quickly if I miss a day or two of fish oil so that is a keeper for me.  

Even with all that, I am very low in zinc and copper, so my Registered Dietician prescribed 15 zinc/1 copper mg daily.  I am considering eating/taking green lipped muscles for those minerals... but... yuk. 

All in these supplements are barely over the RDA.  I don't take 'mega' anything, although perhaps I should.  I am still tinkering with finding the combo that makes me able to climb and recover at my best. 

---

By far the biggest impact on my life is protein.  When I hit 100 gm daily, I'm good to go.  When I miss by much, I can be totally wiped out.  I am used to estimating, but life goes better when I actually use a scale, count grams of protein on MyFitnessPal.  Yesterday, for instance, Tony and I went out for Indian food... it was an all veggie meal, and last night I wasn't very hungry so nibbled on a chicken thigh.  I 'thought' I was ok when I went to bed, but woke up this morning exhausted.  I mean, scary exhausted.  

But I do go back to the fact that this is not an ordinary life by today's standards so we are trying to come up with the recipe for 'senior adult athletes', and even more precisely for women or men.  I'm not spending my days indoors, watching TV. We have guys here climbing 5.12/5.13!   The studies are all there with regards to protein needs for younger people... right at or above that .8-1g/lb of body weight.  But they emphasize that that applies to folks with good levels of testosterone and human growth hormone where cells can receive and utilize protein and other nutrients to build muscle, etc. The studies on older adults would show the need for at least 100 g or more for seniors in order to not LOSE muscle.    

But even for ordinary older folks:  "secretion of HGH peaks at puberty at about 150 µg/kg day, then decreases to approximately 25 µg/kg/day by age 55".  Strength training will naturally increase HGH, but not by enough by the time we're over 60.  (some might disagree).  At any rate, relative to younger people, we are working with much less hormones on board.  

---

Re. NAD... I have been watching it for years now, and keep looking for evidence that it does ANYTHING.  I get that our levels were probably high in youth, and are low now... but so what?  However, some recent studies have come out that have me convinced it's worth adding to the stack.  

However, no pill will ever replace food.  

As regards peptides, I think it's an exciting field.  My own doctor has been sold on peptides for years, and has prescribed several for me over time.  Let's just say, they are the next level above vitamin/mineral supplements, but below pharmaceuticals.  Very powerful, very exciting.    

Totally changing the subject... there's one type of route where a top rope is a complete pain in the ass.  I'm trying to pull in, the rope is trying to swing me out.

Todd… I keep meaning to post something from Eddie Vader playing the ukulele.  This is not it.    Looks to be an acoustic guitar but I know he has performed some of his best songs on the ukulele.  My summer went full circle from Pet Sounds ( Beach Boys) to Eddie on uke.

Lori Milaswrote:

Even with all that, I am very low in zinc and copper, so my Registered Dietician prescribed 15 zinc/1 copper mg daily.  I am considering eating/taking green lipped muscles for those minerals... but... yuk. 

Steamed then spritzed with olive oil, garlic, garnished with parsley and a squeeze of lemon, yum!

Totally changing the subject... there's one type of route where a top rope is a complete pain in the ass.  I'm trying to pull in, the rope is trying to swing me out.

Looser belay will help. There’s a huge under cling you may be able to use with the feet off to the right to make it easier on yourself?

Most of the climbs at the gym overhang. The holds aren’t that good either… the setters make you work to get over those lips.   

dragonswrote:

Lori,

I've been watching the longevity space for 15+ years. I was especially curious about calorie restriction. I didn't actively try that, but I already have a poor appetite, anyway. I'm also really picky about food and actively dislike most junk food. So I might have been doing some calorie restriction accidentally. I sleep well. Eating good food and sleeping well probably outweigh all the other stuff when it comes to longevity.

I started paying attention to Bryan Johnson about a year ago. I tried his packaged Blueprint formula, but couldn't tolerate it, so I gave up soon. I'm tempted to try Novos.

As part of Blueprint, I started exercising daily over 6 months ago. I think that's doing something good. I feel better (both mentally and physically). However, now winter is approaching, so we'll see if that lasts. Also, I have to be careful not to overdo it with daily exercise, since I'm prone to tendon issues. Other Blueprint things that I do: go to bed like clockwork at the same time every day, get lots of sleep. Try as much as possible to eat my last meal 3 or more hours before going to sleep. Bryan reports that his last meal is at 11 AM, and I'd be curious to try earlier dinners.

Re NAD, NMN, NR: I had looked into these briefly but never did enough research to convince myself to try them (I see plenty of people claiming N=1 benefits). Red light therapy: no, seems scammy. Hormones: I think they are counterindicated for me, so haven't looked into it. Peptides: haven't looked into them at all.

Protein: I've been aiming for higher daily doses of protein for over 6 months (1.5 to 2 g per kg bodyweight), and I think it has been helpful, but I have no quantitative evidence for it.

I'm not necessarily interested in living to 100, since I don't think I'll be able to climb at that age. OTOH if I could take a supplement that would help me climb for longer, I'd take it. If I can climb for the next 20 years - even really easy stuff - I can probably die happy. So my main focus is trying to stay free of injuries that might stop me from being mobile every single day. And it appears to me that ain't easy, the older you get. Climbing probably doesn't help in that respect, since it's too easy to get injured. And there are lots of things that can take you out as you age, even if you avoid Peter Attia's four horsemen.

BTW the latest new thing is Klotho, which increases with exercise. But then, maybe it's correlation and not causation.

So what's your current stack? I only supplement with calcium + Vit D + K2 (New Chapter Bone Strength), Omega-3 fish oil (might help the eyes), biotin, protein.

If you are going minimal with the supplements, you might want to consider adding magnesium.  Something like 70% of us are deficient.

I take all kinds of stuff, so it is hard to know what works and what is a waste of money.  I do eat a lot of protein, and since I started taking supercharged collagen prior to training a couple of years ago I have had zero tendon or joint problems.  Maybe a placebo, but Im not going to stop! 

I do think that sleep is WAY underrated.  Everyone is different, but if you need to wake up to an alarm then you aren’t getting enough!  After a hard day yesterday, I slept for 10 hours, lol.