Bioavailable Proteins - Post a day

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

Mhmm. Thanks man.

It'd be great to get your email so I can ask the authors and editors of my references to consult with you next time they put out new edits.  Your compelling credentials will no doubt have them calling for your input in short order.

Yesterday (182g total protein, I'm 160lb):

Okay, I’m suitably impressed with your PhD in keeping healthy and climbing fitness.   

Andy, thank you for engaging in a conversation in a more meaningful way than anybody in the thread has tried previously, in a post with a healthy dose of sarcasm. I appreciate that.

First, stop posting photos of your books because that's just silly. It's like me trying to prove I know the BIble by posting a photo of the Bible I own. Li Hu would surely be impressed. Second, the pop culture diet is the vegan or plant-based diet, not the diet which incorporates healthy amounts of meat and animal products(aka the human diet for 2.7 million years). I am a low-carb(10-15%) omnivore.

Before I address the points you made, I want to attempt to try to deprogram you from the altar of institution and authority that you seem to constantly refrain to. I agree, randos on the internet are likely not a good source of information, but if you're looking for "a practitioner with a high-level of training and expertise." You're talking to one. I don't need to keep referencing my own deep passion for nutrition, which superceded almost any other passion in my life at the ripe age of 10. The reason why the letters next to my name don't matter is because Paul Saladino is an MD and that doesn't seem to breach your level of authority because he disagrees with you. So you're only using authority when it's convenient for you(I disagree with Paul MD, for the record.) People who have been institutionalized(like yourself) actually fall on the wrong end of the Dunning-Kruger, and they become completely unable of using their own rational thought to decide on objective truth, and often, can't even say objective truth exists. Dave Macleod suffers from this problem. If you're not inching your way closer to "a truth", what is the point in learning anything? You just become a mushy pile of studies that you haven't formed into a cogent worldview, which may change at any moment. Boring and uninteresting IMO. You have to process all of the junk science and the occasional good science that comes out of the intelligentsia through your rational brain and decide on the truth. 

Use your rational brain, and let's Think™.

I want to clarify that your answer to my question, "What are your protein levels..." is essentially, "I don't know, I'll never know, I haven't done the work to figure it out, I think it's okay, but here's a bunch of studies about chewing food slowly, and hydrating, and another study about isoflavones in soy that I haven't read which actually proves you right again, Mr. Marx." 

I won't address most of the studies you posted, because they are obvious truths I agree with, that don't really need studying. STOP THE GRANTS. Hydrating with water is healthy, chewing your food is important. I mentioned this previously, especially in regards to vegetables where all of the nutrition is trapped in a cellulose wall and needs to be broken mechanically with your teeth or via cooking. Chewing animal products actually isn't so important. This is why you never find clumps of steak and eggs in your poop, but can find corn, carrots, spinach, broccoli, brussel sprouts, etc.

Leaky gut: for somebody who seems to eat peanut butter every day, which has incredibly high lectin content, and is one of the worst contributors of leaky gut, I'm surprised you want to broach that subject at all. Leaky gut would be a medical issue requiring treatment, aka not a healthy person. A treatment for repairing the gut would be less lectins...wait...remind me which types of animal-products contain high amounts of lectins and which ones have low? Does it say it in those books? Wait, wait, wait. Grain and soy-fed animals, like yourself, a grain and soy-fed animal. Lectins compound over time. Which is why @highflatulence grass-fed meats and pasture-raised chickens are so important. I'd love to hunt for venison every day if that didn't cut into my climbing time.

In regards to your isoflavone soy study that you didn't read, which wholly supports what I've said over and over in this thread:(which I read in it's entirety and knew where it was going 1/3 of the way through)

"In conclusion, these studies show that the bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of isoflavones are influenced mainly by the type of food matrix or form in which they are ingested. A liquid matrix, such as soy milk, yields a faster absorption rate and higher peak plasma concentrations than a solid matrix, whereas aglycones in a fermented food such as tempeh are absorbed more rapidly than glucoside conjugates. Although these data are suggestive of an influence of gender, there was no major influence of age."

Meaning, about 60 healthy(no medical issues) males and females(both pre and post menopausal), of all ages between 30-70ish, digested food in different forms, almost exactly the same! Wow, as if we are all 99% genetically the same in terms of the way our bodies work. Why could there be a difference in gender? The scientists don't know, but let's Think™ . Could it be because of the generally larger size of the intestines in males that more surface area leads to more absorption? Idk, I don't have a study for that. I do have a brain though with an understanding of the world. Of course, this is a small sample and can suffer from all of the pitfalls of human compliance with studies.

If you think the only purpose of creatine is to build muscle, you have your work cut out for you.

Phosphocreatine

More questions for you, why don't you think the average bioavailability of peanuts being 50% matters to the level of nutrition you're actually extracting? What about the average plant of 60%? Where do Recommended Daily Values come from(hint. average people)? You think the 9 essential amino acids just happen to come from your completely random "eat the aisle" plant-based diet? Talk about pop-culture dieting, sheesh. And heme iron, and zinc, and magnesium, and b12, and creatine, and enough omega 3 from a single piece of fish? How much Omega 3 do you need? Do you know? OR is the gut microbiota so varied you can never know? 

12 likes on a post that mostly says nothing but also agrees with me. Just start liking my posts guys. 

Eric Marxwrote:

Andy, thank you for engaging in a conversation in a more meaningful way than anybody in the thread has tried previously, in a post with a healthy dose of sarcasm. I appreciate that.

Phosphocreatine

I thought momentarily that you actually cited a source.  But no.  When you start providing evidence supporting your monologues I'll continue responding to you in good faith.

Until then, here's a textbook example of how you think you know what you're talking about, but you refuse to read and provide the body of research:

Lectins can be either active or inactive.  Active lectins have been shown to do bad things to the mucousal lining of the gut.  Active lectins are found on the surfaces of many legumes and other veggies.  Luckily, I don't eat raw beans or peanuts.  I eat roasted peanuts. And cooked beans. And primarily cooked veggies.  Who tf eats raw peanuts... Snap peas maybe?  And when I do eat raw veggies I thoroughly wash them, even from my own garden and peel them when it makes sense to.  If you follow basic guidelines like these, which a competent nutritionist or dietitian (what I mean by practictioner) will provide, you can eat all the lectin containing foods you want and have a healthy gut.

To say nothing of the fact that I was diagnosed with Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis at age 16 and have been to 4 specialists in the last decade to discuss how I can use my diet to minimize my likelihood of developing Chrons or IBD, having had multiple hour long discussions about lectin, gliadin and other proteins and how they effect my gut.

Even so, I'm not qualified to give nutritional advice.  Which is why I provide sources for the info I present so readers can decide for themselves if it's actionable information. People would maybe take you seriously if you'd provide evidence to back your claims man.  It's really that simple.  Despite politics and the media making it seem many have turned their backs on fact based conclusions and decision making, most people still believe in the scientific method and understand that facts exist.  You have yet to explain why you are qualified to give nutritional advice. Passion is not a credential.  The fact that you dole out nutritional advice to people you know nothing about... rational people can see that for what it is without me typing out a judgement.

Please save your recycled response that I didn't address all of your points (made without evidence) and how evidence is a myth because individual MDs are incompetent (a body of research is not one MD with a blog) and how you're being attacked for your beliefs by not liking your monologues (you state beliefs as facts and get worked up when people push back).  We got it.

no vegan has ever finished the tour de France race. Not won or podiumed, never mind that. Never even finished the race. Hard to argue that the TDF isn't the pinnacle of physiology research. 

Eric Marxwrote:

 Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to help people.

That's pretty hard to believe. You may very well have a lot of useful information to share, but it gets lost in your insults and chest-thumping.

Brandt, this a forum, which is very unserious. I'll say this as clearly as I can, I'm a Catholic, I know in my soul we are made in the image of something greater than ourselves and should treat each other as such. I am not angry. I am being sarcastic. I'm speaking rationally. When you form a totally rational post, addressing nearly every point made by somebody who is apparently studying to be a nutritionist(who literally cited that chewing food and drinking water is important), and their response is, "show me the studies I can tell you're angry" and they haven't even read their OWN studies, that warrants a laughing, sarcastic, "You are such a dope." lol 

Can you trust me on this or do you think I'm sitting here just ready to break my keyboard in half and lying to you cause I feel like it lol

Love firing off my morning three posts in this thread.

gtlukewrote:

no vegan has ever finished the tour de France race. Not won or podiumed, never mind that. Never even finished the race. Hard to argue that the TDF isn't the pinnacle of physiology research. 

Since you brought it up, I’m going to ask you to look deeper. I’m far from a vegan (like really really far) but I’m also a cardio head carbohydrate lover and currently have 8 bikes in my garage. So you’ve got my attention.

1% of the worlds population is vegan (approximately).

Of that 1% how many have become a professional cyclist. 

One step further, how many professional cyclists ride the TdF in their career?

Now if you can come back with a stat that says 92 vegans have started the race and zero finished, you’re on to something. If you come back with 1 vegan started and DNF, well, that’s an utterly useless conclusion.

Wrecks, illness, time cuts, fatigue, giant mountains day after day, all of these things are reasons riders don’t finish. 

Professionals, by definition are paid to do a certain job. They eat what the team chef/nutritionist recommends. They also inject what the team doctor gives them, but that’s another discussion entirely. Any individual on a team, being paid by that team, would not be allowed to assert their individuality unless they were already far better than the rest of the team already. It’s a business and racers are simply a tool for the team.

my point is that if it were even slightly better, they would all be doing it. instead of none.

gtlukewrote:

my point is that if it were even slightly better, they would all be doing it. instead of none.

My impression is that being a vegan is a giant pain in the ass. Super hard to keep up with and especially more so in a stage race.

I remember sitting with my team in a hotel and one guy put down his food and asked “who else is sick of eating” it was only a 5 day race and we all were. Same race, can’t remember if it was the same year, I nearly threw up trying to get some breakfast down, before I had to ride another 90 miles through the mountains. And I’ll eat anything.

So yeah, it would be wildly impractical to be a vegan at the TdF.

In that sense, I agree with your sentiment.

The probably factual but definitely unresearched claim is what I have a problem with.

Fact, nobody has ever ridden the Tour de France with a squirrel in their pants.

Fact, nobody without a nose has ever climbed the nose.

I could go on like that all day.

gtlukewrote:

no vegan has ever finished the tour de France race. Not won or podiumed, never mind that. Never even finished the race. Hard to argue that the TDF isn't the pinnacle of physiology research. 

I don't know enough about pro cycling to comment on this claim specifically.  But I'll offer that of the 3 nutritionists I'm close with, none of them are strong advocates for a strict vegan diet.  2 of them are vegetarian/pescatarian and the other specifically doesn't do rules/labels when it comes to "diets", only principles.  Whole foods focused, organic if they can afford it, and as varied weekly as possible are some of things I've heard all 3 repeat many times.  

In my opinion the shortage of strict vegans at the highest level of endurance sport doesn't have a strong indication to what would benefit someone who doesn't train for a living.  Especially since that athletes would be very prone to prioritizing performance on race day could over long term health.  There are plenty of individuals who perform at the highest level of sport on a strictly vegan diet, Brendan Brazier comes to mind as bringing that into the spotlight many years ago, but you are definitely right that it's the exception rather than the rule.  

Just don't know what actionable conclusions we should draw from it given most of us don't pedal to put food on the table.  A TdF's riders daily life looks nothing like mine at least. So I guess I just disagree that it's the "pinnacle of physiology research" as it relates (or doesn't) to weekend warriors who want to live a long, well balanced life. Wouldn't say it's hard to argue that point.

--

Breakfast- sourdough with smoked salmon, leftover kale pesto a pear and black coffee with marine collagen (38g protein)

AM snack- more plantain chips which are going stale (negligible)

Lunch- leftover garlic/honey/lime tofu (pronouced toad-food in our house) with brown rice and an arugula salad with a bunch of veggies from the garden. (34ish grams, didn't weigh the portion of tofu I had left over)

PM snack- apple and peanut butter and decaf coffee with half a scoop of collagen (22ish grams)

Dinner- pan seared trout and white wine sauce made with the last of our chanterelles from monday's forage.  Chickpea flatbreads and the last of our kale pesto.  (something like 35g conservatively based on a portion I didn't weigh)

Dessert- my wife's GF choco chip/hazelnut cookies made with chickpea and almond flour, I ate too many and gave myself a stomach ache so I dont even know if I should count these.  But know that you can get protein from cookies if you make them yourself. Maybe 2-3g per cookie, so 15ish grams of protein.

Just shy of 150g all told.

most insufferable mountain project thread

Just listening to a vegan talk is exhausting. Imagine being one? 

Yukon Corneliuswrote:

most insufferable mountain project thread

Didn't you get the news? The primary purpose of life is to think/obsess about yourself 24/7 and to find new ways to do so.

Yukon Corneliuswrote:

most insufferable mountain project thread

Yet here you are - 12 pages deep commenting. You even have an insufferable meme name. Welcome fellow clown

All the plant based people in this thread are panicking because their whole world view (and echo chamber) is being challenged. 

grug gwrote:

All the plant based people in this thread are panicking because their whole world view (and echo chamber) is being challenged. 

Challenged by what? One weird dude that likes steak?

grug gwrote:

Yet here you are - 12 pages deep commenting. You even have an insufferable meme name. Welcome fellow clown

Touche. This is truly a shocking look in the mirror. I have become my own worst enemy.

I guess I might as well participate. Yesterday I skipped breakfast, then had a couple of slices of pizza for lunch (2 for 1 special at Whole Foods). I had some chips and fresh peaches as a snack, then baked some salmon for dinner with asparagus and kale salad.

Breakfast today was eggs with rice, veggies, and avocado. Currently snacking on a watermelon and some coffee w whole milk.

IDK any of my macros but I try to eat mostly whole foods, eat when I'm hungry, and stop when I'm full.

grug gwrote:

All the plant based people in this thread are panicking because their whole world view (and echo chamber) is being challenged. 

Most of the plant based people I know cite ethics as their main reason for their dietary choices. Nothing in this thread has addressed - much less challenged - that part of the equation. 

cubist Awrote:

Most of the plant based people I know cite ethics as their main reason for their dietary choices. Nothing in this thread has addressed - much less challenged - that part of the equation. 

This is legitimately a good point.