Trends that have fallen out of style

phylp phylpwrote:

I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. For the first ten -15 years I was climbing, other climbers (almost always male) made assumptions about woman climbers. The assumptions were things like:

*assuming my male partner was my husband/boyfriend (usually not true, my husband mostly stopped climbing very soon after I started).

*assuming I wouldn't be leading anything, overt surprise and sometimes comments as I racked up

*assuming I was the weaker climber

*assuming my female partner and I were gay

*assuming my female partner and I were going to be slower than any male duo that walked up to the crag

It would be too many long and probably boring stories to explain how I could tell these assumptions had been made.  Typically it was something that was said out loud to me or my partner.

But, happy to say, I never experience that kind of stuff anymore and have not for quite a long time.  So I would say that trend has fallen out of style. Yay!

Me and my pals met Alison Osius in The Valley in the early 1980s and were surprised to discover she led harder than her boyfriend. It was the first time we had seen what we thought at the time was a reversal of roles. 

By 1996 I was a bit more clued-in so my climbing partner and I could be wryly amused when a male climber asked me "does she know what grade that is?" as she was about to lead me up a poorly protected 5.11. 

In 2024 such attitudes seem to have - mostly, though not entirely - gone the way of waist belays. 

As a fossil I am sometimes asked what the biggest changes I have seen in climbing since I started. Sometimes I say bolts and sport ethics but sometime I say proportion of female participants.  Both have been transformative.

Duncan said….”As a fossil I am sometimes asked what the biggest changes I have seen in climbing since I started. Sometimes I say bolts and sport ethics but sometime I say proportion of female participants.  Both have been transformative” 

IIRC… Bobby Kamps said that about 1996… Jess saying 

Actual rope skills.  The dinosaur I am I made my first set of quick draws out of cordelette. It's amazing to me how many modern climbers couldn't rig a munter, a harness, properly tie a natural anchor, don't know a star from a 1/2 inch, the carabiner "ATC".  Point being is that you rely on the equipment to do the math for you.  A belay device works by creating bends and friction.  If you understand the root principles you can execute them indefinitely. The list goes on, the lack of Actual rope skill in climbing is the biggest change I've single handedly observed.  

but do you have skills with modern tools? can you complete the climb and descent with a surprise storm around the corner? or will you be tying prussick loops and arranging your oval biners to do something that one very versatile modern tool can do quickly, while lightning strikes around you? i get that you need the skills if you drop your rack and harness and whatever, but that rarely happens and if it does, you'd be surprised what a lot of people actually can figure out if they truly need to. you're also confusing age with inexperience. there's a lot of people who are just inexperienced, like you were at one point. it's not that they're experienced but said "screw concepts, i just like gadgets"...

ilya fwrote:

but do you have skills with modern tools? can you complete the climb and descent with a surprise storm around the corner? or will you be tying prussick loops and arranging your oval biners to do something that one very versatile modern tool can do quickly, while lightning strikes around you? i get that you need the skills if you drop your rack and harness and whatever, but that rarely happens and if it does, you'd be surprised what a lot of people actually can figure out if they truly need to. you're also confusing age with inexperience. there's a lot of people who are just inexperienced, like you were at one point. it's not that they're experienced but said "screw concepts, i just like gadgets"...

Yeah but again I can do all of that with a rope and carabiner.  

Some years back I was repelling on double ropes when a rock fall obliterated our lines.  It was basic knot tying skills that got us to the ground.  

I've made the gagets, I've sold the gagets, but in the end they are ALL designed to supplement. 

Honestly I'm confused what your angle is here. Being woke about climbing gear is a weird stance to take.  

I can tell you first hand all of your convience gear was designed with the idea that we're designing against human error.  

How else do you sell climbing gear? The gear is designed to circumvent stupidity.  

I have a PAS, and I climb using it as another sling.  New equipment is cool and great, but my point is that's equipment is NOT the substitute of knowledge.  

I remember climbing with someone that used all the fancy gear.  But when the rope got stuck after the third rap it was a prussic and ATC that got us through it.  

My big point hear is that's it's not about the gear it's about the skill set.  A U stem C4 protects the same as a UL not because of the dynemma but because the cam angle is the same.  

i don't disagree with you about the importance of skills. i am referring back to your original post which literally says "shame on those who use specialized equipment". and i'm saying your assumption is wrong. just because someone is using a piece of equipment doesn't mean they don't know how to do it without. you can't see the skills that people have, and you're being lazy in trying to suss that out. the laziness is assumptions like PAS = can't tie a clove hitch, grigri = can't belay without it, and so on. that's all. that's a shitty attitude toward people. the truth is that anyone having to rescue an unconscious leader who has fallen with more than half the rope out wouldn't be able to do it with all the gadgets if they don't understand the concepts. the gadgets wouldn't save them. but you specifically said anyone carrying gadgets doesn't have skills, that's my point. don't be so crusty!

Thank you for your educational dissertation on being woke with regards to climbing gear. I personally have never considered the feelings of gear or people who use said gear.  

I didn't realize that shaming people in my head for anchoring with  PAS on a multipitch was out of line with the style of today.  

To be fair the thread was "trends that have fallen out of style." I have seen this trend, if this acknowdement offends you maybe start with yourself and understanding why your so offended by a standards and accepted practices approach.  

i'm sorry for arguing, maybe i'll run into you out there sometime and you'll see that i'm not trying to prove anything to you. i was just pointing out what i thought was a pretty dismissive statement, that's all. we probably agree on a lot, cheers!

All right, fighters to your corners please. Let’s bring this back. I was enjoying reading about the history and development of the sport…can some of the happy old guys (edit: excuse me, and gals) please continue?

ilya fwrote:

i agree about the rope but the way you and i do things isn't the right way. it's just a way. people can do whatever they want, and shaming them makes you sound like a sad angry person an old man yelling at a cloud. it's okay that people do things differently. 

Having an anchor separate from the rope is quite useful in rescue situations. A small cordellette is also quite multi-use. 

SIngle purpose anchor things like the Trango alpine equalizer are kind of gimmicky and certainly not multi-use and seem kind of silly to me, but to each their own.

Our next melee on this thread shall center on the following question:

If all the hangers have been removed from a fully bolted route, and I protect it with wires on the studs, do I get to say that I tradded it, or is that out of style now?

BrokenChairs 88wrote:

Being woke about climbing gear

We are so cooked. What does "being woke about climbing gear" even mean?

Logan Petersonwrote:

Our next melee on this thread shall center on the following question:

If all the hangers have been removed from a fully bolted route, and I protect it with wires on the studs, do I get to say that I tradded it, or is that out of style now?

You do if it happened in Australia.

BrokenChairs 88wrote:

Actual rope skills.  The dinosaur I am I made my first set of quick draws out of cordelette. It's amazing to me how many modern climbers couldn't rig a munter, a harness, properly tie a natural anchor, don't know a star from a 1/2 inch, the carabiner "ATC".  Point being is that you rely on the equipment to do the math for you.  A belay device works by creating bends and friction.  If you understand the root principles you can execute them indefinitely. The list goes on, the lack of Actual rope skill in climbing is the biggest change I've single handedly observed.  

My dude. You're 39. 

Alex Guzmanwrote:

My dude. You're 39. 

Boomer is a mindset

Camdon Kaywrote:

We are so cooked. What does "being woke about climbing gear" even mean?

It means he consumes unhealthy amounts of right-wing media.

This thread has been surprisingly entertaining so far, for various reasons. Carry on. 

Sam Mwrote: This is gunna be a bit Australia specific, but "sport climbing" on carrot bolts. These days, if it has a carrot bolt, it's trad, even if the whole route has only bolts for protection.

My 2010 Blue Mountains guidebook has 4 categories "Sport climb", "sport climb on carrots" (hangerless bolts), "mixed climb" (bolts and gear) and "trad climb" (more or less a splitter crack).

These days, its basically 2 categories, anything but a fully equipped sport route on new bolts is a trad climb. Which I guess is technically correct, if you take the literal meaning of traditional?

Believe it or not, I have mates in Qld who advocate for rebolting existing routes with glue-in carrots to minimise visual impact. I actually don’t think it’s a bad idea in access sensitive areas, but I’m a masochist who enjoys hanging bolt plates. 

Leading.

WF WF51wrote:

Leading.

In good style i would add.