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Placing new 5 piece in old bolt holes
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Might be a dumb question but what are thoughts on removing and pulling old 1/2” sleeve/wedge bolts and replacing them with new expansion bolts? Particularly in southern sandstone like found in AR. |
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You generally shouldn’t replace a bolt with the same sized bolt as the hole may be bigger so upsize the bolt so it’s a fresh hole. Eg 3/8 redrilled to 1/2”, 1/2 to glue ins. |
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1/2" plated sleeve to 1/2" SS sleeve is fine since the hole isn't damaged by the removal. Spinning a 1/2" wedge can significantly wallow out the hole which might be bad. Sleeves have a pretty big expansion range, so it might work if it gets up to torque. If the wallowing increases all the way to the lip of the hole, that would be sub-optimal... |
Gregger Manwrote: So you are saying that from pulling the 1/2” sleeve and placing a new is ok practice but spinning a wedge bolt could potentially upsize the hole which makes sense, in that case better to use glue in. |
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What are you guys thoughts on glue in’s what are you using and why? Currently I have experience with wave bolts but I’m not excited about having to use a specific tool to attach to the bolt in order to hammer it in. I have heard about a twist bolt that apparently solves this problem? |
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Yes the bolt products twist bolt, somewhat similar the the wave but way easier to place. https://www.team-tough.com/twist-bolts-4 |
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You shouldn't have a problem going from plated 5 peice to SS 5 peice, assuming you're pulling them properly and not drilling them out. You're much better off going with glue ins on sandstone though in the long run. |
Blake Mwrote: How well does the twist bolt hold in place in steep rock before it cures? |
Diego Bwrote: I have mostly used twist bolts, but for the wave bolts I have used a plastic head hammer worked fine to tap them into the hole in sandstone. |
Diego Bwrote: Depends on the rock quality, they are designed to have a bit of mechanical interference on the last bit of insertion. I have found in soft rock that the hole wallows a bit and there is not much interference. We don't have much steep rock so it's not a problem. You might check out the crossover bolt. Place by hand and you can set them with a mallet if you need interference to hold them in |
Diego Bwrote: If you use a 12mm drill bit, very well. If you use a 1/2" drill bit, not really at all. |
Blake Mwrote: Easier to place? Hmmm, I’ll be darned. |
Diego Bwrote: Depends… temperatures and adhesive type used affect this greatly. |
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So I’m gunna say that in steep rock, Wave bolts win in terms of holding their position while glue is still wet? |
Diego Bwrote: The interference you get with a 12mm hole and a twist bolt is more than enough to hold the bolt in while glue dries. It's not enough to weight it, but it's better than hammering in a wave bolt imo. There's ways to get an interference fit with pretty much any glue in bolt, even single/solid leg bolts- For a 100mm x 10mm SLB, you can drill a 100mm x 3/8 or 10mm hole, then re-drill the first 70-80 mm with a 12mm or 1/2" hole. Then lightly tap the bolt in the last 20-30mm until it's flush with the rock. |
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I love the Twist bolts, especially the 8mm ones, but it sounds like Dave's new Crossover bolts https://www.team-tough.com/crossover-bolts would fit what you are looking for for steeply overhanging placements. I haven't been able to do any bolting lately so I haven't personally used them yet , but they seem to be getting good reviews. |
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I see that there are 6mm and 8mm bolts, what do you prefer for routes and why. For some reason I can’t find any info on what diameter Wavebolts are? Does anyone know specs on that? I’m guessing that they are 6mm? Thanks so much for the help so far guys! |
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For me, the preference for the 8mm is mostly just aesthetics. The 6mm ones are plenty strong. The bigger ones would theoretically hold up to wear better if people bail directly off the bolts and the radius would be slightly nicer on your rope. For just a little more cost they are psychologically more reassuring to people too. The smaller ones can at first look like coat hanger wire if you are not familiar with them and their strength. I seem to remember the Wave bolts were made from 6mm stock also, but I wasn't able to find confirmation in a quick search either. |
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6mm, 8mm is way overkill and more expensive in all the ways, bigger more expensive bits, more glue per bolt, more expensive bolts. 6mm ones are rated to 40kn which is already overkill |
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Twist bolts for american consumption and wave bolts are made from 1/4" round stock (1/2" finished bolt diameter) the 5/8" Twists made with 8mm round are rather unnecessary for most applications and use a lot more epoxy. My experience is twist bolts works fine in all but the steepest overhangs and roof placements with a thick glue like AC100+. |
DrRockso RRGwrote: Are you sure the twist bolts for American consumption (from team tough) are 1/4"? I install them with 12mm drill bits all the time and can almost always twist them in by hand, or maybe a few taps with a nearby rock. Admittedly this is in soft limestone. Edit to add: i went ahead and measured the wave bolts and twist bolts I have, it looks like wave bolts are 1/4" and twists are 6mm:   |
