Dirtbagging has ruined climbing access

B Ywrote:

It really boils down to two main character flaws. Complete and utter ignorance coupled with a strong sense of entitlement. Has nothing to do with dirtbagging. Living with your head up your ass is an indiscriminate trait. 

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. People will knowingly do the wrong thing, thinking its someone else's problem. But mainly, its just nobody decides to step up and say anything. 

Honestly though, areas need to do a better job of posting and enforcing their rules. I feel like most people genuinely don't know all the rules of the areas, especially since they vary from crag to crag. Etiquette is another thing, but that is learned, sometimes the hard way and should be enforced by self policing in the community, which I feel like nobody does anymore. 

Gym to crag has become "bring the gym atmosphere to the crag" and the climbing "stewards" I see in my area, just make climbing outdoors a huge social event. They don't teach anything are mostly just under skilled and are looking to boost their social media following. Nobody is learning anymore. 

Best I can tell, the only purpose of the stewards that I’ve seen in Indian creek is to provide free coffee 

I blame poor people who can’t afford accommodation (stationary or mobile)

B Ywrote:

It really boils down to two main character flaws. Complete and utter ignorance coupled with a strong sense of entitlement. Has nothing to do with dirtbagging. Living with your head up your ass is an indiscriminate trait. 

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. People will knowingly do the wrong thing, thinking it’s someone else's problem. But mainly, it’s just nobody decides to step up and say anything. 

Agree with this. I believe it comes from a society that has placed too much faith in capitalism and its tenets. Extracting whatever you can from the natural world for yourself or business with little regard for others or the future.
Tragedy of the Commons

We also have a prominent politician that refuses to follow laws, customs, or even have respect for other people. This is igniting a new wave of selfishness in our society.

NateCwrote:

I didn't declare them extinct, just said that they are "all but extinct." I do think that there are far far less these days. It's not just the developments of comforts that has tempted many out of dirtbagging, but also the high profiles that many former dirtbags have carried has encouraged govt agencies to get involved to really dedicate themselves to measures that killed the ability to dirtbag (parking permits for campsites in Yosemite for instance.) There are still ways for the most creative and committed but finding your way into it is a lot more difficult now and keeps the numbers down. 

My point really though was that it's not the dirtbags that are creating access problems. Dirtbags keep a very low profile and footprint out of necessity. The people creating the problems are more often privileged and pampered individuals who treat public lands like a utility and commodity for their entertainment, rather than special and perhaps sacred areas to be experienced but untrammeled as possible. 

You don't see them, so how do you know there are less?

I will say to Yosemite: 

1. Still very doable for a whole season without problems ;)
2. It's always been hard if you are attached to anything but climbing. Become like Buddha.
3. Using Yosemite as an example is not a good proof. Yosemite is high profile. It's a big world out there, there are many areas where dirt bagging is pretty darn easy, and many dirt baggers thrive.

Pinche Gringo wrote:

As a sub-human, blue-collar worker (not a doctor, lawyer, or a dentist..), I've noticed plenty of my non-influential counterparts are great stewards and invest time and money into the areas we climb.  This all despite our lowly existence.  Perhaps the "dirtbags" you reference are mostly younger folks from well off families that afford them the time and freedom to play "dirtbag" for a year or more..  Surely you don't count the wealthy Vanlifers as dirtbags..  Most of us low born don't have the option to "dirtbag", and those who do choose to take that path are very few..  So maybe you're problem is with a different class of people despite if they choose to look poor..  I can't imagine there are enough dirtbags to be responsible for the overuse issues we face.  

Have you considered Instagram culture may play a bigger role in these issues than the handful of poor people at your crag?  No trolling here when I say that the Insta-climbers are likely a bigger problem and should consider the crag to gym initiative. 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Social media will be the downfall of climbing as we know it. 

B Ywrote:

It really boils down to two main character flaws. Complete and utter ignorance coupled with a strong sense of entitlement. Has nothing to do with dirtbagging. Living with your head up your ass is an indiscriminate trait. 

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. People will knowingly do the wrong thing, thinking its someone else's problem. But mainly, its just nobody decides to step up and say anything. 

Honestly though, areas need to do a better job of posting and enforcing their rules. I feel like most people genuinely don't know all the rules of the areas, especially since they vary from crag to crag. Etiquette is another thing, but that is learned, sometimes the hard way and should be enforced by self policing in the community, which I feel like nobody does anymore. 

Gym to crag has become "bring the gym atmosphere to the crag" and the climbing "stewards" I see in my area, just make climbing outdoors a huge social event. They don't teach anything are mostly just under skilled and are looking to boost their social media following. Nobody is learning anymore. 

I'd also say there's plenty of older folks that have just "gotten away with it" for a long time, as on my first multipitch I carried out the trash of a party ahead of me that were very experienced climbers and well-heeled medical professionals, yet they left a bag of trash at the top of the walk-out. Shitty people are everywhere, so if you want to retain your climbing areas, realistically you need better enforcement mechanisms for when people aren't respecting things like wet sandstone. 

B Ywrote:

Gym to crag has become "bring the gym atmosphere to the crag.......

Nobody is learning anymore. 

I'm waiting for some of the Instagram climbing guide influencers to touch on these points but they are all too busy making gymbo reels on the best ways to clip into anchors(which PAS is best) and how to tie 99 useless knots for no reason. 

The entitlement crowd is growing exponentially and certainly it's not just one category of climbers,  it's a national plague.

I gotta add, when did someone starting a thread to discuss a touchy subject become a troll? Should we consider banning the OP now because he "trolled" us into conversation ?

And yeah, I get the Vegas thing, it's a real shitshow there with all the FREEbags rolling through looking to fulfill their entitlement issues.

Luigi Mwrote:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Social media will be the downfall of climbing society as we know it. 

FIFY

The argument in the OP is backwards, the popularity of climbing has ruined dirtbagging.  

If it weren't for dirtbagging climbers I bet most crags wouldn't have been developed in the first place.  All of the restriction put into place like permits, access fees, camping fees, organized campgrounds, etc work ok for the white collar climbers that can throw a few dollars or even $70 at a campsite or permit fee and who have the luxury of signing in from a computer on their lunch break to do so but it makes it a lot harder for the true dirtbag to go climbing.  It will push dirtbag climbers further out to the fringe crags which will get bolted and cleaned and developed and then become popular and the cycle will repeat.

The argument in the OP is backwards, the popularity of climbing has ruined dirtbagging.  ...

It will push dirtbag climbers further out to the fringe crags which will get bolted and cleaned and developed and then become popular and the cycle will repeat.

 So you're saying that by having it backwards, the OP is absolutely correct - dirtbaggers have ruined climbing access!

Match point.

Jason4Toowrote:

The argument in the OP is backwards, the popularity of climbing has ruined dirtbagging.  

If it weren't for dirtbagging climbers I bet most crags wouldn't have been developed in the first place.  All of the restriction put into place like permits, access fees, camping fees, organized campgrounds, etc work ok for the white collar climbers that can throw a few dollars or even $70 at a campsite or permit fee and who have the luxury of signing in from a computer on their lunch break to do so but it makes it a lot harder for the true dirtbag to go climbing.  It will push dirtbag climbers further out to the fringe crags which will get bolted and cleaned and developed and then become popular and the cycle will repeat.

Gentrification strikes again

M Mwrote:

I'm waiting for some of the Instagram climbing guide influencers to touch on these points but they are all too busy making gymbo reels on the best ways to clip into anchors(which PAS is best) and how to tie 99 useless knots for no reason. 

The entitlement crowd is growing exponentially and certainly it's not just one category of climbers,  it's a national plague.

I gotta add, when did someone starting a thread to discuss a touchy subject become a troll? Should we consider banning the OP now because he "trolled" us into conversation ?

And yeah, I get the Vegas thing, it's a real shitshow there with all the FREEbags rolling through looking to fulfill their entitlement issues.

Do you like working for Fox News?

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. Nobody is learning anymore.

I copied these sentences and entered them into the search box on the Google Translate website - Nothing came up.

an indiscriminate trait.

Can a trait be indiscriminate?

WF WF51wrote:

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. Nobody is learning anymore.

I copied these sentences and entered them into the search box on the Google Translate website - Nothing came up.

an indiscriminate trait.

Can a trait be indiscriminate?

Maybe you just have a limited vocabulary....im not talking about genetics. I'm talking about a character trait. Omg. There it is. I said it again. 

To put that into lay terminology for you:

Any human can be an idiot, regardless of race, gender, upbringing socio economic status etc etc.

Also, your context skills need sharpening 

I think people without internet access ruined climbing.

I feel like we can all agree on two things:

1) climbing (access and the soul of the activity itself) is being ruined.

2) this is the fault of Not Me. We might disagree about what one defining trait is at fault, but it’s definitely not a trait that I have.

So if we all just agree that it’s down to people without internet access, what are they going to do? Log in and point out that’s reductivist nonsense? They don’t have internet access!

We win by default and have found our scapegoat. No self reflection or evidence based thinking required. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

In my opinion the real issue is simply the numbers of people ( and not just in climbing) and the overall impact on the relatively limited, and inherently fragile, resources. While these ( ever increasing) numbers are impacting all aspects of life, even within the outdoor travel and recreation 'arena', it is not dirtbags, or even climbers specifically, that have led to such things as reservation requirements and limitations for campsites, trails, park entrances, certain popular roads

Agreed.  At Eldo, I think the reservation and shuttle systems were put in place because of the booming number of hikers going to the State Park, not climbers whose numbers only showed steady growth.

Charlie Swrote:

I don't always troll, but when I do...

No, hear me out. Climbing access continues to be in jeopardy, and the Access Fund has basically said sucks to be you, pay and reserve anyway.

What does dirtbagging have to do with it?

Overuse. Not enough good stewards. Not stealthy camping and leaving crap out. (Someone even had a campfire there!) Run ins with the law. Generally looking haggard and unruly. Notoriously cheap and leaving areas less clean than they found them. Parties late into the night. Explosives at Indian Creek (I tried finding this years-old video but basically 2 Europeans enjoyed their spring in IC and closed off by blowing up their tent and setting it on fire.)

I even know one person who openly admitted to stealing from larger stores (like REI) but wouldn't steal "from smaller stores because I appreciate them."

Now we have big wall and entrance reservations.  Fees for previously free and public places. Even climbing in Indian Creek could become subject to permitting.  You've likely seen closures and clamping down on camping at crags near you.

Meanwhile, bikers get to have the loop road and state highways closed, with government officials accommodating the interests of a small user group.  The SNMBA was able to begin trail work AND ride trails off of Deer Creek road several months before the general populace was allowed to drive up (I don't have a link for this, it was an Instagram story earlier this year).  The SNMBA President was appointed to the BLM advisory council to represent dispersed user interests.

What's the difference?

For starters, bikers are generally employed. They have an expensive hobby with expensive toys and expensive competition fees.
They spend money at the locations they visit. To be fair, they're probably not as hardy when it comes to bad-weather camping.
They spend a lot of time on trail maintenance.
Their members tend to be well respected and not looked upon as dirty, homeless, and unruly.
They tend to be dentists, lawyers, and doctors.

As for us climbers, we're what? Generally not white collar work. I haven't seen many in blue collar work, either. Not working seems to be the modus operandi.

Just an idea. Maybe, if as a group, we tried to clean up our image, stay employed, make money, become influential within our circles and local communities, we could make some progress.

Flame on!

Correlation is not causation. 

Sep Mwrote:

I think people without internet access ruined climbing.

I feel like we can all agree on two things:

1) climbing (access and the soul of the activity itself) is being ruined.

2) this is the fault of Not Me. We might disagree about what one defining trait is at fault, but it’s definitely not a trait that I have.

So if we all just agree that it’s down to people without internet access, what are they going to do? Log in and point out that’s reductivist nonsense? They don’t have internet access!

We win by default and have found our scapegoat. No self reflection or evidence based thinking required. 

Yea and to make it worse, they don’t even have an Instagram or YouTube account to post their crafted apology to the community. The nerve of these people!

Colin Rowewrote:

Correlation is not causation. 

Literacy does not mean you can read. Say reading the first line of the post…

Everyone making disparaging comments in this thread are the ones who are ruining climbing.