Dirtbagging has ruined climbing access

Cocoapuffs 1000wrote:

Maybe, but this needs to be kept on the shortest of leashes, especially with regard to where the fees are going.  It's very easy for these "necessary evils' to end up having a huge conflict of interest with the invested parties.

That ship has already sailed unfortunately. 

The climbing dirtbag is all but extinct. From reading the OP, I'm not ever sure you know what the term means. Climbing dirtbags historically kept very low key profiles, hid in the shadows, and kept off the radar. It was how you kept the Man and his Tools from messing with you. Dirtbagging was about letting everything go and living for climbing. I'm not here to defend it as the most contributory lifestyle, but most dirtbags did very little damage. A few gained too high of profile, and while still identifying as dirtbags, started to draw attention to the existence of the dirtbag by writing about it in magazines, talking about it in climbing vids, and being high key about something that should have stayed in the shadows. This killed the true dirtbag lifestyle and drew in the hordes of wannabes who loved the romanctic idea of the dirtbag life, but weren't willing to truly take the chance and so they kept their tech jobs, bought $100k sprintervans with Starlink, flooded the crags and sensitive areas, and claimed to be dirtbags. But they are the furthest thing from the real deal.

The current generation of $100k sprintervan driving entitled dipshits BEGGING to be seen, is the antithesis of everything the climbing dirtbag is. They can't let go of comforts and live for adventure. They can't be inconvenienced in the slightest. So for instance, they can't drive way off into the desert where they won't be seen. Instead they park right on the edge of town in Red Rock, and draw attention to themselves for everyone driving by just  to be closer to town and buying their $7 coffees in the morning. Shit like this is happening at every major area. It's less about climbing and more about "lifestyle." They can't even understand the difference enough to begin to have the conversation. It's exactly this lack of self-awareness that leads to the problems the OP is describing, yet he says it's the dirtbags. I'm guessing that it's for lack of a better term. Perhaps we should describe them as Sprinterbags? It's really two very different kinds of individuals. 

Seems like classic bigotry. You present a lot of anecdotes of bad dirtbags and now have decided to draw an arrow, and of course like any good bit of prejudice, you link physical appearances to behavior. But for every anecdote of arsehole dirtbags, I can give an anecdote of asshole local climbers, hikers, canyoneers, guides, tourists, or any other demographic you want. I think the reality is bad ethics/mentorship implies arsehole. Might include some bad parenting too.

I'm also skeptical that the overuse problem can be laid at the hands of dirtbags. I'm pretty sure it's just because climbing is becoming exponentially more mainstream.

Charlie Swrote:

What's the difference?

For starters, bikers are generally employed. They have an expensive hobby with expensive toys and expensive competition fees.
They spend money at the locations they visit. To be fair, they're probably not as hardy when it comes to bad-weather camping.
They spend a lot of time on trail maintenance.
Their members tend to be well respected and not looked upon as dirty, homeless, and unruly.
They tend to be dentists, lawyers, and doctors.

As for us climbers, we're what? Generally not white collar work. I haven't seen many in blue collar work, either. Not working seems to be the modus operandi.

Just an idea. Maybe, if as a group, we tried to clean up our image, stay employed, make money, become influential within our circles and local communities, we could make some progress.

Flame on!

Where did you get this idea, that climbers are generally not white collar work?

I'm sure this is somewhat region-dependent, and also like tends to attract like, but my impression has been the opposite: the vast majority of climbers I have ever climbed with, or interacted with, have been people in white collar jobs. Dentists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, professors, etc. Even the "non-9-to-5" group tends to have people with flexible remote jobs, trust find babies, early retirees from well-paid jobs, self-employed consultants, etc.

Lena chitawrote:

Where did you get this idea, that climbers are generally not white collar work?

I'm sure this is somewhat region-dependent, and also like tends to attract like, but my impression has been the opposite: the vast majority of climbers I have ever climbed with, or interacted with, have been people in white collar jobs. Dentists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, professors, etc. Even the "non-9-to-5" group tends to have people with flexible remote jobs, trust find babies, early retirees from well-paid jobs, self-employed consultants, etc.

Valid, you're right.  I'm thinking the western scene.  I used to be in the NY climbing scene and that's a totally different animal.

Dow Williamswrote:

The answer is actually incredibly simple.  Disperse.  Those who are not adventurous enough to seek out lessor visited climbing destinations and/or routes, deserve to pay for access and camping,  stepping in dog and human feces, facing reservation type restrictions, etc, etc.  I find it easier than ever to climb great trad routes with zero to few humans and trash to be found.  I attribute that to the herd mentality of coming from the gym vs the alpine environment into climbing technical rock.  Most want to be around crowds.  They want to clip bolts.  They and their cubby bellies don't want approaches.  They want and need the rah rah.  I think many are actually fearful of being isolated from the masses and/or out of network with their phones.  Keep doing what you are doing.  Wait in line to climb routes.  It works well for some of us.

Nice clinical study you've done

Seems like classic bigotry.

Were you referring to this?

Those who are not adventurous enough to seek out lessor visited climbing destinations and/or routes, deserve to pay for access and camping,  stepping in dog and human feces, facing reservation type restrictions, etc, etc.  I find it easier than ever to climb great trad routes with zero to few humans and trash to be found.  I attribute that to the herd mentality of coming from the gym vs the alpine environment into climbing technical rock.  Most want to be around crowds.  They want to clip bolts.  They and their cubby bellies don't want approaches.  They want and need the rah rah.  I think many are actually fearful of being isolated from the masses and/or out of network with their phones.

Charlie, i think your troll thread has succeeded.

We have wealth shaming, classism, and idealized visions being hotly debated. Liked and subscribed

When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty

trailridgewrote:

When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty

Bring back drinking and driving! Roadies 4ever!

Agreed, biking is generally full of yuppies, climbing, hobos, er ‘dirtbags’. Being poor is a moral thing with climbers? Give back to society, have an interest outside this, be multifaceted, build a good life to give something to your community and/or kids one day. Climbers take that to mean you’re a sell out. It seems they want to skate by & be consumers.

NateCwrote:

…..OP is describing, yet he says it's the dirtbags. I'm guessing that it's for lack of a better term. Perhaps we should describe them as Sprinterbags? It's really two very different kinds of individuals. 

Dirtbags vs spurtbags.   (Sprinter dwelling jerk-offs)

NateCwrote:

The climbing dirtbag is all but extinct. From reading the OP, I'm not ever sure you know what the term means. Climbing dirtbags historically kept very low key profiles, hid in the shadows, and kept off the radar. It was how you kept the Man and his Tools from messing with you. Dirtbagging was about letting everything go and living for climbing. I'm not here to defend it as the most contributory lifestyle, but most dirtbags did very little damage. A few gained too high of profile, and while still identifying as dirtbags, started to draw attention to the existence of the dirtbag by writing about it in magazines, talking about it in climbing vids, and being high key about something that should have stayed in the shadows. This killed the true dirtbag lifestyle and drew in the hordes of wannabes who loved the romanctic idea of the dirtbag life, but weren't willing to truly take the chance and so they kept their tech jobs, bought $100k sprintervans with Starlink, flooded the crags and sensitive areas, and claimed to be dirtbags. But they are the furthest thing from the real deal.

The current generation of $100k sprintervan driving entitled dipshits BEGGING to be seen, is the antithesis of everything the climbing dirtbag is. They can't let go of comforts and live for adventure. They can't be inconvenienced in the slightest. So for instance, they can't drive way off into the desert where they won't be seen, instead they park right on the edge of town in Red Rock and draw attention to themselves for everyone driving by so that they are closer to town and can buy their $7 coffees in the morning. Shit like this is happening at every major area. It's less about climbing and more about "lifestyle" but they can't even understand the difference enough to begin to have the conversation. It's exactly this lack of self-awareness that leads to the problems the OP is describing, yet he says it's the dirtbags. I'm guessing that it's for lack of a better term. Perhaps we should describe them as Sprinterbags? It's really two very different kinds of individuals. 

The climbing dirtbag is not extinct. Maybe by percentage they seem smaller with the various innovations and developments you describe, but I think there are more dirtbags now than ever.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

The climbing dirtbag is not extinct. Maybe by percentage they seem smaller with the various innovations and developments you describe, but I think there are more dirtbags now than ever.

I didn't declare them extinct, just said that they are "all but extinct." I do think that there are far far less these days. It's not just the developments of comforts that has tempted many out of dirtbagging, but also the high profiles that many former dirtbags have carried has encouraged govt agencies to get involved to really dedicate themselves to measures that killed the ability to dirtbag (parking permits for campsites in Yosemite for instance.) There are still ways for the most creative and committed but finding your way into it is a lot more difficult now and keeps the numbers down. 

My point really though was that it's not the dirtbags that are creating access problems. Dirtbags keep a very low profile and footprint out of necessity. The people creating the problems are more often privileged and pampered individuals who treat public lands like a utility and commodity for their entertainment, rather than special and perhaps sacred areas to be experienced but untrammeled as possible. 

Anyone notice that the people sending hard all have vans or built out vehicles with beds? It’s like elite athletes need to behave like elite athletes. You don’t see a lot of NFL players slumming it in a sleeping bag on the turf 

So many generalizations and pointless differentiations (i.e. defining 'dirtbag') going on here. The problem, as always, is people. Period.

apogeewrote:

So many generalizations and pointless differentiations (i.e. defining 'dirtbag') going on here. The problem, as always, is people. Period.

apogee, no killing off noobs. 

apogeewrote:

So many generalizations and pointless differentiations (i.e. defining 'dirtbag') going on here. The problem, as always, is people. Period.

It's hard not to get into definitions and semantics when the original post immediately delved into socioeconomics and appearances as the root of the "people problem." 

"It's the dirty looking ones without good jobs who are creating all of my access issues." 

It really boils down to two main character flaws. Complete and utter ignorance coupled with a strong sense of entitlement. Has nothing to do with dirtbagging. Living with your head up your ass is an indiscriminate trait. 

I see this problem from all angles stemming from the same traits. People will knowingly do the wrong thing, thinking its someone else's problem. But mainly, its just nobody decides to step up and say anything. 

Honestly though, areas need to do a better job of posting and enforcing their rules. I feel like most people genuinely don't know all the rules of the areas, especially since they vary from crag to crag. Etiquette is another thing, but that is learned, sometimes the hard way and should be enforced by self policing in the community, which I feel like nobody does anymore. 

Gym to crag has become "bring the gym atmosphere to the crag" and the climbing "stewards" I see in my area, just make climbing outdoors a huge social event. They don't teach anything are mostly just under skilled and are looking to boost their social media following. Nobody is learning anymore. 

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I blame Starlink.