Dirtbagging has ruined climbing access

I don't always troll, but when I do...

No, hear me out. Climbing access continues to be in jeopardy, and the Access Fund has basically said sucks to be you, pay and reserve anyway.

What does dirtbagging have to do with it?

Overuse. Not enough good stewards. Not stealthy camping and leaving crap out. (Someone even had a campfire there!) Run ins with the law. Generally looking haggard and unruly. Notoriously cheap and leaving areas less clean than they found them. Parties late into the night. Explosives at Indian Creek (I tried finding this years-old video but basically 2 Europeans enjoyed their spring in IC and closed off by blowing up their tent and setting it on fire.)

I even know one person who openly admitted to stealing from larger stores (like REI) but wouldn't steal "from smaller stores because I appreciate them."

Now we have big wall and entrance reservations.  Fees for previously free and public places. Even climbing in Indian Creek could become subject to permitting.  You've likely seen closures and clamping down on camping at crags near you.

Meanwhile, bikers get to have the loop road and state highways closed, with government officials accommodating the interests of a small user group.  The SNMBA was able to begin trail work AND ride trails off of Deer Creek road several months before the general populace was allowed to drive up (I don't have a link for this, it was an Instagram story earlier this year).  The SNMBA President was appointed to the BLM advisory council to represent dispersed user interests.

What's the difference?

For starters, bikers are generally employed. They have an expensive hobby with expensive toys and expensive competition fees.
They spend money at the locations they visit. To be fair, they're probably not as hardy when it comes to bad-weather camping.
They spend a lot of time on trail maintenance.
Their members tend to be well respected and not looked upon as dirty, homeless, and unruly.
They tend to be dentists, lawyers, and doctors.

As for us climbers, we're what? Generally not white collar work. I haven't seen many in blue collar work, either. Not working seems to be the modus operandi.

Just an idea. Maybe, if as a group, we tried to clean up our image, stay employed, make money, become influential within our circles and local communities, we could make some progress.

</troll>
Flame on!

I'll bite.

If you want a solution, in some areas, the venn diagram of gym climbers and software developers is essentially a single circle.

Ergo the solution here is a more robust gym to crag program.

/troll

The answer is actually incredibly simple.  Disperse.  Those who are not adventurous enough to seek out lessor visited climbing destinations and/or routes, deserve to pay for access and camping,  stepping in dog and human feces, facing reservation type restrictions, etc, etc.  I find it easier than ever to climb great trad routes with zero to few humans and trash to be found.  I attribute that to the herd mentality of coming from the gym vs the alpine environment into climbing technical rock.  Most want to be around crowds.  They want to clip bolts.  They and their cubby bellies don't want approaches.  They want and need the rah rah.  I think many are actually fearful of being isolated from the masses and/or out of network with their phones.  Keep doing what you are doing.  Wait in line to climb routes.  It works well for some of us.

Dow Williamswrote:

The answer is actually incredibly simple.  Disperse.  

Ding ding ding, right here folks! While that's still possible..

Someone didn't get to experience the decades being blamed for everything that mountain bikers had. The birthplace of mountain biking is still closed to them. The difference is probably large amounts of mountain bikers doing lots of outreach, advocacy and trail work to make their dreams a reality. 

Mountain bikers have plenty of dirt bags and shitlords too, but they've built enough advocacy and support that it overwhelms other factors. Want that for climbing? Pick up trash. Maintain areas you got banned from climbing in to build goodwill. Remind people at public meetings of that work. Be willing to compromise. Call out bad members of the community when they make others look bad. 

A lot of people crutch on the history of authority conflict in climbing to excuse bad actors, so stop that too. 

Do we think the ratio of bad steward to good steward is different in the dirtbag sub population to that of the whole climbing community?

Adam Rwrote:

Do we think the ratio of bad steward to good steward is different in the dirtbag sub population to that of the whole climbing community?

 

Honestly, no clue. They're both mostly individualist sports with an emphasis on highly exposed moves, so they attract somewhat similar types in some ways. All I'll say is that when I started mountain biking as a kid 30 or so years ago, we were persona non grata in a lot of places even as mountain biking was blowing up. There were more than a few instances where we'd help clean/fix up a trail, then get blamed for equestrian damage by equestrians and would be banned from riding trail systems, so saying mountain bikers are golden children is pretty rich.
I think the spirit is there in climbing, and you have many places with really dedicated stewards/people putting in the work, but I think there's a bit of a lack of awareness from some that you don't get access and status from whining, but rather from putting in the work first and distancing yourself from those who are doing the damage. 

I found that wearing a suit to the crag really changes the atmosphere for everyone. 

You might reconsider your mischaracterization of the Access Fund blog entry from 2021 that you linked.  It is grossly inaccurate and dismissive to say that the message is "sucks to be you, pay and reserve anyway."

There is an attempt to evaluate both the positive and negative impacts of pay/reserve systems, and the bottom line seems to be that we shouldn't completely dismiss these systems as all negative, and that we should take action/advocate against those aspects with which we disagree.  

It is, overall, a better message and strategy than your "clean up and get a whitecollar job, ya dirty bum," and access issues are arguably far more detrimentally impacted by the whitecollar gym-to-crag demographic than by the true dirtbags in the community.

But then, you admitted you were trolling from the start ...

*** 

As climbers, we must acknowledge that we are entering a new era. The growth of our sport, and outdoor recreation as a whole, threatens the places and experiences we care so much about. Land managers will likely continue to respond with new limitations on at-will entry to some of the most popular climbing and outdoor recreation destinations.

We need to examine these limitations with a critical eye and speak up when they unintentionally harm the climbing experience. At the same time, we should not interpret them only as a burden. They are a trade-off. In exchange for added hurdles to entry, we might gain the experience so many of us crave on our public lands—open space, few lines, solitude. And these systems may help to ensure that recreational access is sustainable for years to come.

As climbers, we have to get involved to advocate for a vision that places a premium on both sustainable access and conservation. Access Fund is committed to working with the climbing community and with land managers to ensure that any new permit systems are necessary, include robust public process, are informed by the most current science and statistics, and are equitable. Though these changes are uncomfortable, they can, if implemented correctly, have the potential to help protect the lands we love and enhance our experience on them.

Finally, with all this growth in outdoor recreation, we all have to be more vigilant to reduce our own impacts, to improve conditions on the ground through volunteer stewardship, and to support and partner with land managers. The best way to preserve sustainable access is to lead by example in taking care of these incredible places.

https://www.accessfund.org/latest-news/open-gate-blog/get-ready-more-permit-and-reservation-systems-are-likely-coming 

Not sure who I first read this quote from but  "there's an leisure class at either end of the economic spectrum"

I've been climbing for 35 years and I've only known the dirtbags. Being a dirtbag does not exclude good stewardship. IMHO I think it's the entitled people with money trash the environment more.

If you're driving a sprinter, you're not a dirtbag.

june mwrote:

Not sure who I first read this quote from but  "there's an leisure class at either end of the economic spectrum"

I've been climbing for 35 years and I've only known the dirtbags. Being a dirtbag does not exclude good stewardship. IMHO I think it's the entitled people with money trash the environment more.

If you're driving a sprinter, you're not a dirtbag.

That quote is usually attributed to 1960/70s era Yosemite climber/ Camp 4 denizen Eric Beck, whom I believe is still an active climber.

As far as OPs 'question', I don't think it is the 'dirtbags' as such that are the main cause of the access problems, though some individuals who fit this designation, have undoubtedly at times contributed to specific situations. In my opinion the real issue is simply the numbers of people ( and not just in climbing) and the overall impact on the relatively limited, and inherently fragile, resources. While these ( ever increasing) numbers are impacting all aspects of life, even within the outdoor travel and recreation 'arena', it is not dirtbags, or even climbers specifically, that have led to such things as reservation requirements and limitations for campsites, trails, park entrances, certain popular roads ( summit road to Mt. Cadillac in Acadia National Park, for example) and even outright closures of certain areas---it is the result of the fact that there are too many people 'competing' to utilize those resources and the necessity for the land managers/owners to take steps to try to maintain both the resources themselves and the users' experiences.

We actually live in an Alternative, Braggarts' Universe.

If those guys back in the 50s and 60s had recognized the golden goose they discovered, and then kept it quiet? Climbing would be great again.

But no, first they bragged about it, then they wanted to make money off the noobs they lured in. And you get what we have here.

In the real universe they never told anyone about nothing. The general public never even heard of rock climbing, much less dreamed of doing it.

Alan Rubinwrote:

...I don't think it is the 'dirtbags' as such that are the main cause of the access problems... In my opinion the real issue is simply the numbers of people ( and not just in climbing) and the overall impact on the relatively limited, and inherently fragile, resources. 

This exactly. In 1984 the USA had 235.9 million people. The population today is 333.3 million. If the percent of the population enjoying outdoor activities remained the same, the number of people enjoying the activity increased by ~70% ~40% compared to 40 years ago. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

That quote is usually attributed to 1960/70s era Yosemite climber/ Camp 4 denizen Eric Beck, whom I believe is still an active climber.

As far as OPs 'question', I don't think it is the 'dirtbags' as such that are the main cause of the access problems, though some individuals who fit this designation, have undoubtedly at times contributed to specific situations. In my opinion the real issue is simply the numbers of people ( and not just in climbing) and the overall impact on the relatively limited, and inherently fragile, resources. While these ( ever increasing) numbers are impacting all aspects of life, even within the outdoor travel and recreation 'arena', it is not dirtbags, or even climbers specifically, that have led to such things as reservation requirements and limitations for campsites, trails, park entrances, certain popular roads ( summit road to Mt. Cadillac in Acadia National Park, for example) and even outright closures of certain areas---it is the result of the fact that there are too many people 'competing' to utilize those resources and the necessity for the land managers/owners to take steps to try to maintain both the resources themselves and the users' experiences.

Yes…this ^^^

There are just too many people now. The masses currently engaging in recreation have never experienced a truly uncrowded world, and they act accordingly. One of the few benefits of getting older is having the experience, albeit long gone, of areas like IC, JTree, and Tahquitz being quiet, serene places for climbing. When I see my younger climbing friends loudly stepping all over each other, I feel bad that they’re deprived of that experience…

P Degnerwrote:

This exactly. In 1984 the USA had 235.9 million people. The population today is 333.3 million. If the percent of the population enjoying outdoor activities remained the same, the number of people enjoying the activity increased by ~70% compared to 40 years ago. 

That's a 41% increase, not 70%.

Gunkiemikewrote:

That's a 41% increase, not 70%.

Shoot you're right, fixed it

Charlie Swrote:

I don't always troll, but when I do...

No, hear me out. Climbing access continues to be in jeopardy, and the Access Fund has basically said sucks to be you, pay and reserve anyway.

What does dirtbagging have to do with it?

Overuse. Not enough good stewards. Not stealthy camping and leaving crap out. (Someone even had a campfire there!) Run ins with the law. Generally looking haggard and unruly. Notoriously cheap and leaving areas less clean than they found them. Parties late into the night. Explosives at Indian Creek (I tried finding this years-old video but basically 2 Europeans enjoyed their spring in IC and closed off by blowing up their tent and setting it on fire.)

I even know one person who openly admitted to stealing from larger stores (like REI) but wouldn't steal "from smaller stores because I appreciate them."

Now we have big wall and entrance reservations.  Fees for previously free and public places. Even climbing in Indian Creek could become subject to permitting.  You've likely seen closures and clamping down on camping at crags near you.

Meanwhile, bikers get to have the loop road and state highways closed, with government officials accommodating the interests of a small user group.  The SNMBA was able to begin trail work AND ride trails off of Deer Creek road several months before the general populace was allowed to drive up (I don't have a link for this, it was an Instagram story earlier this year).  The SNMBA President was appointed to the BLM advisory council to represent dispersed user interests.

What's the difference?

For starters, bikers are generally employed. They have an expensive hobby with expensive toys and expensive competition fees.
They spend money at the locations they visit. To be fair, they're probably not as hardy when it comes to bad-weather camping.
They spend a lot of time on trail maintenance.
Their members tend to be well respected and not looked upon as dirty, homeless, and unruly.
They tend to be dentists, lawyers, and doctors.

As for us climbers, we're what? Generally not white collar work. I haven't seen many in blue collar work, either. Not working seems to be the modus operandi.

Just an idea. Maybe, if as a group, we tried to clean up our image, stay employed, make money, become influential within our circles and local communities, we could make some progress.

Flame on!

Thanos was right.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

We actually live in an Alternative, Braggarts' Universe.

If those guys back in the 50s and 60s had recognized the golden goose they discovered, and then kept it quiet? Climbing would be great again.

But no, first they bragged about it, then they wanted to make money off the noobs they lured in. And you get what we have here.

In the real universe they never told anyone about nothing. The general public never even heard of rock climbing, much less dreamed of doing it.

Look what I can do!!!

Criminals and azzwholes ruin everything.  Sadly, they don't even understand or perceive who they really are. They are a very small percentage.

Those who move silently, politely, considerately, and leave no trace, are not the problem.

As noted above, it's not Dirtbaggers, it's the azzwholes in the Dirtbag community.

I don’t mind at all if landowners and managers implement common sense methods to protect land for future generations. I’d rather have to deal with some minor fees and permitting so that my kids get the opportunity to have the same experiences that I did.

curt86irocwrote:

I don’t mind at all if landowners and managers implement common sense methods to protect land for future generations. I’d rather have to deal with some minor fees and permitting so that my kids get the opportunity to have the same experiences that I did.

Maybe, but this needs to be kept on the shortest of leashes, especially with regard to where the fees are going.  It's very easy for these "necessary evils' to end up having a huge conflict of interest with the invested parties.