This trend is horrible. And needs to stop

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Cool to here from an experienced local. Thank you for your insight and knowledge on the crag, Robert.

Ben is correct that E-Rock isn't beginner-friendly, but that's not going to change anytime soon. That's why I often tell people to get solid at 5.8 or 5.9 at the sport crags before hitting the 5.6s at E-Rock, and so on. And if I have clients struggling at E-Rock, I suggest they try one of the limestone crags next time, where 5.6-5.8 routes are way easier than they are at E-Rock.

Eric Craig wrote:

I am going to have to correct you one more time, sheesh........

For the love of God, give it a rest. 

Peter, you have my sympathy. You’ve been admirably patient.

I for one have been quite more interested in Peter Beal and Eric Craig's versions of climbing history through 2 different lenses.
Thanks for the side piece gentlemen and an indirect thanks to Ben for being the creator of the thread that allowed it all to come out.

Ben G wrote:

 But here in TX theres not all that much rock. And 96% of all land is privately owned. So options are very limited. The claim that many made on here "there's enough rock for everyone" doesn't really apply.     Another experience I had was in Scottsdale AZ.  I searched other areas for slabbing opportunities (i.e. Joshua Tree even though its very far from me) and sure enough...the trend continues. 

You are quite INCORRECT that "the trend continues."  There are tens of thousands of sport routes now.  So the situation is vastly different than it was over 30 years ago.  You now have plenty of opportunity to go to places that offer what you want.  As was already pointed out to you, to get to some of those places you listed above, you drove past numerous sport climbing areas, generally places where the land manager doesn't mind numerous anchors.  There is NO reason to alter existing routes without an overwhelming consensus by highly experienced climbers.

Robert Swrote:

There is here in Texas, where like 95% of the land is privately owned. At the area Ben is talking about, it's nearly impossible to get permission to put in bolts because management wants to preserve the natural state as much as possible. So you can't just put up new routes protected the way you prefer.

I didn't know the Texas status,  but that makes it unanimous, -

All 3 of the areas complained about have significant restrictions on bolting. 

Ben Gwrote:

Meh…The problem with that analysis is that the painter bought the canvas and the paints. He owns them. A climber does not own the rock he climbs on. The painter also created the art on that painting. The climber did not create the rock he climbs on. I know this is not gonna sit well with many on here but like someone else mentioned in this thread, I too find it very odd that someone can go to a rock that’s been there for many many generations, on public land,  put some bolts in it, and then claim that part of the rock for eternity.

And no I will not get a feel of what you experienced on the FA because to you that route is a walk in the park and to me it’s hard and scary.

Remember folks…this debate is about beginner routes. Someone please explain to me why advanced, seasoned climbers feel so strongly about a 5.6??? Where is the spiciness in climbing a runout 5.6 if you can lead a 5.9+ Nevermind the 5.11+ climbers. Makes no sense to me. I can only chalk it up to ego or control.

If you want spicy, there’s plenty of stuff you can do to spice up your climbing. Let the beginners, old folks, climbers with bad knees or ankles, other disabilitie, etc…etc…have their well protected moderates. We want to conquer multi pitch walls too. And we have as much right to it as you do. And we don’t care for spiciness. Why are you trying to dictate what happens on routes that you will never step a foot on? I’m pretty sure none of us care how you bolt your 5.11s.

By your naive posts, I'm assuming you are a young man. You need to do some studying on the history of our sport. As a first ascentionist, I look for a natural line. Then I choose to climb that line in the cleanest way possible, placing only enough pro to avoid a ground fall, and enough to make me, the leader, feel safe. How close together that pro ends up is MY choice as the one who had the vision for the route. 

If you're uncomfortable with runouts, then follow the route. Then you can work your way up to growing a pair.

From the start, I figured - 90% - Tradiban deep fake account.

Good catch. 

This thread is horrible.  And needs to stop

Man if you can’t send runout slab just don’t get on the wall it ain’t that deep 

Let me preface this by saying that I love to find a reasonably bolted slab at or around my limit that I can safely project. In fact, that might be one of the things I get most stoked about seeing when exploring a crag. Maybe that's because of the relative rarity, but probably just because I love slab. That said, there is a point in favor of preserving and creating more run out slab that I haven't seen raised yet.

It's a pretty unique feeling to not be able to see the next bolt, nor an obvious line when things get thin. You've got to pick something and continue to commit, one step at a time, with the awareness the if you choose wrong things could blank out, or spit you out 10 left or right of the next bolt. It's a test of routefinding under pressure that I've not found elsewhere, even climbing moderate trad. Skipping bolts on a closely bolted route cannot replicate this, hell soloing a closely bolted route couldn't replicate it. I wouldn't want for this to be the only style of climbing I had access to, but some days it really hits the spot.

Let's put up handrails for the final thousand feet of all of the 14ers so that people who struggle with exposure can feel safe as they summit. If you don't like them, don't grab them.

I just think it's funny that the incident that lead to this thread was toproping a slab

The irony here (admittedly more than one) is that Enchanted Rock (the main subject of his ire) is a tremendous place to learn slab climbing and has produced more than it's share of competent climbers. The land is not subject to federal guiding permits so there has long been a tradition of local teaching and mentoring. And, the nature of the rock makes it easy for guide services to set up multiple topropes in a small area and provide technique instruction. And the area has plentiful crack climbing so one can learn a full range of skills. Lead a 5.5 crack and set up your own toprope on a 5.7 slab. The opportunities abound. 

Has the OP taken advantage of any of this? Seems unlikely at best. I'll just wallow in my ineptitude instead.

ddriverwrote:

The irony here (admittedly more than one) is that Enchanted Rock (the main subject of his ire) is a tremendous place to learn slab climbing and has produced more than it's share of competent climbers. The land is not subject to federal guiding permits so there has long been a tradition of local teaching and mentoring. And, the nature of the rock makes it easy for guide services to set up multiple topropes in a small area and provide technique instruction. And the area has plentiful crack climbing so one can learn a full range of skills. Lead a 5.5 crack and set up your own toprope on a 5.7 slab. The opportunities abound. 

Has the OP taken advantage of any of this? Seems unlikely at best. I'll just wallow in my ineptitude instead.

Learned to climb trad at Erock and glad I did. If you can climb the grade there, you can climb it elsewhere. Runout slab, finicky gear (generally), stout boulders, heart of Texas.

Eric Craig wrote:

I am going to have to correct you one more time, sheesh........the "thank Bridwell" (forgive me Jim) holds on Gripper pre-date Outer Limits and Wheat Thin.

Honestly Peter, I think (but don't know) you aren't the average MP blogger,  and I appreciate that. You and I might even get along! If you know and might happen to see Alan Jolley, please say high for me. All the other Eldorado/ Boulder guys I would know, I think are all dead.

Pin scars are another topic.

I don't know Alan! I am sure that we probably have a fair number of mutual friends and acquaintances though. That's a depressing thought that your friends from Boulder BITD are no longer around. OTOH, they might be still climbing at the Boulder Rock Club, where I am a climbing coach. A lot of older climbers go there. :)

Great having the discussion Eric. Look me up if you're ever in Boulder. It's not common to meet people who know the history!

ddriverwrote:

The irony here (admittedly more than one) is that Enchanted Rock (the main subject of his ire) is a tremendous place to learn slab climbing and has produced more than it's share of competent climbers. The land is not subject to federal guiding permits so there has long been a tradition of local teaching and mentoring. And, the nature of the rock makes it easy for guide services to set up multiple topropes in a small area and provide technique instruction. And the area has plentiful crack climbing so one can learn a full range of skills. Lead a 5.5 crack and set up your own toprope on a 5.7 slab. The opportunities abound. 

Has the OP taken advantage of any of this? Seems unlikely at best. I'll just wallow in my ineptitude instead.

I absolutely have. I’ve setup multiple trad anchors in the Throne Rock area and climbed some of those routes. I have Practice Slab down now. I feel very comfortable in building trad anchors (to answer earlier question). I’ve done a lot of exploring on the backside of half dome and am familiar with the ledge there. My next goal is to setup TR on The Today Show. The couple of times I rappelled from that ledge looking for it I missed it.

I saved your earlier post with your suggestions and I will refer to it when I go again. 

THE FIRST ASCENT PRINCIPLE: A climb is a work of art, a creation of the men who made the first ascent.  To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and to deprive others of the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it.  It is like taking anothers [sic] painting or poem and 'improving' it.  Better to paint our own pictures and write our own poems.  - Royal Robbins

It's interesting that the Royal emphasizes CHOPPING bolts, not adding retro bolts. And the bold emphasis is mine. Many people here keep equating the first ascent principle to "ownership" of the route, while it's more about respect and leaving the climb for others to enjoy the climb as the FA intended. 

I for one love traditional and SPORT routes. I like the experience of both. I'm not a "chest beating ego maniac" for wanting to preserve traditional routes as the FA intended. I want the opportunity to experience those routes in a similar fashion to the FA. If it's too bold for me I'll search out a different route that is more in line with the amount of risk acceptable for me, and I'm fine with leaving that climb for someone who wants that experience. And I love to get on sport routes where the risk of serious injury/death is very low so I can focus on other aspects of climbing like physical difficulty, problem solving, etc. 

I get it when an area has lots of run out climbs and it's a bummer for many that those aren't accessible to more people.  But as I mentioned up thread if anyone has a better idea than the first ascent principle I'd like to hear it. 

So, Ben G…have any of the comments in this thread altered your view of FA’ist slab protection?

Ben Gwrote:

What is with this prevailing trend for long runouts on “easy” routes. Some even dozens of feet  before a clip. Especially slabs. I don’t get it.

Easy for who??? The people that can climb much higher grades? Are they the ones that will take a break from climbing 11s and 12s so they can do a 5.6 or 5.7 route? Or 5.4 - 5.5 route?

Which routes are the total newbies supposed to start on and climb repeatedly? Do you think a 5.6 slab is easy for them? In case you’ve been climbing for so long that you forgot what starting out felt like, I’ll tell you…It’s NOT. And I imagine those 5.5/5.6 routes were bolted for them.

Even though I have climbing experience from back in the days, I never did slabs. And when I did my first one it was a 5.6 and I was TERRIFIED. On top rope LOL. I didn’t think any of the footholds will hold and constantly saw my face and knees cheese grated on the crystalline granite. And my girl who was a fairly new climber didn’t even think it was possible to climb it.

I say bolt those routes GENEROUSLY. Let the newbs have something safe to start and practice on. Once you get into the higher grades, do whatever you want to feed your ego (I’ve seen very advanced climbers in very heated debates on why a 5.7 slab should be left dangerously runout). Again… I don’t get it. 

Will do.

apogeewrote:

So, Ben G…have any of the comments in this thread altered your view of FA’ist slab protection?

It definitely gave me a much better understanding of how they came to be and why. I also didn't realize how someone's climbing motivation can differ so much from person to person. Some parts of the climbing culture still don't make sense to me, but that might come with more knowledge and maturity. 

Overall, it doesn't seem like the core climbing community on here (not talking about this thread) is very fond of newcomers. Some do embrace them but some seem to resent them.

Zachary Ottwrote:

Is your thesis that the Web is unsafely bolted or that it should be climbed in a different style...?

The thesis is if we are applying the "get better, respect the rock, and you wont need a bolt" ethos in a certain area, it should apply equally to all grades.

In the same area, holding the same local ethics.....If a 5.6 climber is expected to runout 20 feet, the 5.13 climber shouldn't get 4 bolts in 25 ft.  They should just get good enough to climb 5.15 and then highball it. 

Scott Kidneywrote:

The thesis is if we are applying the "get better, respect the rock, and you wont need a bolt" ethos in a certain area, it should apply equally to all grades.

In the same area, holding the same local ethics.....If a 5.6 climber is expected to runout 20 feet, the 5.13 climber shouldn't get 4 bolts in 25 ft.  They should just get good enough to climb 5.15 and then highball it. 

null

1. (Yellow line) - 5.5 Trad - 0 bolts. Im not even sure if theres pro at the arrow. Might be even higher.

2. 5.6 Sport - 4 bolts

3. 5.8+ Sport - 7 bolts