DOGS!

Michael Rush wrote:

If Ira OMC wants to start a vote, let him do it you control freak. 

Ha!  That's funny.  I was the first person who voted!  I clicked on both posts, when the numbers read zero, just to get the ball rolling. 

It's a fun idea, and I totally support Ira's initiative. 

It's only that, you know, people are already voting by bringing their dogs.

Also, it's pretty funny, people like you, who are calling for more control, trying to twist things around and accuse me of being a control freak!

I'm not the one saying all dogs should be on leash with muzzles...

Just saw this article in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/may/01/trump-republican-kristi-noem-shoot-dog

The title is the following, with a small modification for these threads:

Kristi Noem’s dog-killing embodies the cruel phoneyness of today’s Republicans MP dog-haters

Lot's of people here have talked about shooting, stabbing, kicking, or otherwise hurting dogs at the crag...maybe that's because some of our prominent politicians behave this way?

The dog hater champion, Will C, has said that he loves his dog, but that it's "just a dog" and a "lower animal", and that he would happily sacrifice it for a human stranger...I think my new name for him on these threads will be KM, like Kristi Noem, a proud dog shooter, or perhaps GG, like Greg Gianforte, a proud wonded wolf in a trap shooter.

The dog-haters are in good company!  

I'm so sick of aggressive off-leash dogs. Totally over it. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

Gotta love the cognitive dissonace here!

Climber owning and possibly ingesting illegal drugs while top role soling at a crag = good guy with solid responsibility and community values

Person bringing dog to crag = entitled and selfish misanthrope with no sense of responsibility and twisted values

(For the record, I have nothing against shrooms, top rope soling, or dogs, obviosuly)

The perpetual projection of Bruno will forever make Dog threads an absolute delight. 

Thread talks about dogs eating mushrooms literally disassociates the story(makes up parts like a climber high on shrooms while climbing) to fit his narrative/beliefs to feel better. Then blames the poster for cognitive dissonance. 

Then says "I have no problem against shrooms."  It's pretty blatant that Bruno does have problems with it. Inconsistency in values/attitudes/beliefs is the literal definition of cognitive dissonance. 

I do have to hand it to him.  He doesn't back down, unless it's when he invades the Women's Forum. 

Jordan Wilson wrote:

The perpetual projection of Bruno will forever make Dog threads an absolute delight. 

Thread talks about dogs eating mushrooms literally disassociates the story(makes up parts like a climber high on shrooms while climbing) to fit his narrative/beliefs to feel better. Then blames the poster for cognitive dissonance. 

Then says "I have no problem against shrooms."  It's pretty blatant that Bruno does have problems with it. Inconsistency in values/attitudes/beliefs is the literal definition of cognitive dissonance. 

I do have to hand it to him.  He doesn't back down, unless it's when he invades the Women's Forum. 

My bias aside.

Best post on MP, for a long time, by far.

Bruno Schull wrote:

Just saw this article in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/may/01/trump-republican-kristi-noem-shoot-dog

The title is the following, with a small modification for these threads:

Kristi Noem’s dog-killing embodies the cruel phoneyness of today’s Republicans MP dog-haters

Lot's of people here have talked about shooting, stabbing, kicking, or otherwise hurting dogs at the crag...maybe that's because some of our prominent politicians behave this way?

The dog hater champion, Will C, has said that he loves his dog, but that it's "just a dog" and a "lower animal", and that he would happily sacrifice it for a human stranger...I think my new name for him on these threads will be KM, like Kristi Noem, a proud dog shooter, or perhaps GG, like Greg Gianforte, a proud wonded wolf in a trap shooter.

The dog-haters are in good company!  

And you are a teacher?

All of your dog concerns are valid.  I guess the issue is why do you feel entitled to have the outdoors YOUR way.  This is a colonialist attitude carried over to a Eurocentric activity.    I am sure the mosquitos, spiders, moss, weather, other climbers etc are all annoying you in your distinct entitled privilege of mastering your environment.  The canine has as much right as you to be in the environment.  Check your privilege and be a part of nature.  Try understanding the other creatures instead of wondering why they are against you.  Maybe some listening.  We need to create spaces for our fellow species in the outdoors.  Not exclude.  

J Lind wrote:

All of your dog concerns are valid.  I guess the issue is why do you feel entitled to have the outdoors YOUR way.  This is a colonialist attitude carried over to a Eurocentric activity.    I am sure the mosquitos, spiders, moss, weather, other climbers etc are all annoying you in your distinct entitled privilege of mastering your environment.  The canine has as much right as you to be in the environment.  Check your privilege and be a part of nature.  Try understanding the other creatures instead of wondering why they are against you.  Maybe some listening.  We need to create spaces for our fellow species in the outdoors.  Not exclude.  

Nothing says the truth like spelling with all capital letters.

Is Bruno not defending his actions in the women's forum on this thread? 

colonialist attitude.  
Eurocentric activity.
canine rights.
create spaces for our fellow species.

FFS

J Lind wrote:

All of your dog concerns are valid.  I guess the issue is why do you feel entitled to have the outdoors YOUR way.  This is a colonialist attitude carried over to a Eurocentric activity.    I am sure the mosquitos, spiders, moss, weather, other climbers etc are all annoying you in your distinct entitled privilege of mastering your environment.  The canine has as much right as you to be in the environment.  Check your privilege and be a part of nature.  Try understanding the other creatures instead of wondering why they are against you.  Maybe some listening.  We need to create spaces for our fellow species in the outdoors.  Not exclude.  

What the hell is this even trying to say... Like I can invite any species to any outdoor space?  Any idea the repercussions that could cause to you know the entire fauna of the area? Look at the shit show that is now the everglades. 

Its okay to feel entitlement to preserving outdoor spaces and not disrupting the experience of others.  Dogs can be just as disruptive/bad as any of the things we hate: bluetooth speakers, drones, kids, beta sprayers, etc.  The main difference is it seems there is this portion of the community that turns a blind eye to the dog issues just because "their dog isn't like that". 

Dogs were bread to live in civilization.  That is now their outdoor space.  The majority of dogs I see at crags would be happier if they were just trained to be left at home for a few hours. There are exceptions but don't kid yourself that most dogs going to crags are well behaved and/or enjoying them selves. 

Bad post, if not troll. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Is it that I'm beating the dead horse that is Bruno? If so I apologize.  It was just to hard to not say something after he teed it up so nicely. 

Jordan Wilson wrote:

Dogs were bread to live in civilization.  

Breed/Bred

Bread

bread dogs are the wurst

Jordan Wilson wrote:

Is it that I'm beating the dead horse that is Bruno? If so I apologize.  It was just to hard to not say something after he teed it up so nicely. 

It's like catching flies that don't have wings.

Hi folks, 

Wow, I leave for five minutes and you guys go crazy!

Seems like you really missed me  

@ Big Country and others regarding women’s forum—sorry, I won't bite.  I explained that clearly several times before.

@ Will C.  #1 I gotta say, I walked into that one.  Well played.  Before I gave you initials, I should have remembered the initials attached to my own name.  Anyway, despite our loving and tender posts, you seem like a decent guy, except you are a boulderer, which explains a lot.

@ Will C #2 Your point about reducing the argument to dogs on leashes is well taken, but these threads have never been only about dogs.  Over and over, people make the jump from Dog --> Owner --> Responsibility --> The collapse of society.  Therefore, I think it's absolutely fair to ask others to broaden their perspective, and ask themselves why they are so obsessed with dogs, and not all the many other things that people do all the time.  If my point did not have merit, we wouldn’t have sayings like, “The pot calling the kettle black” or “People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.”  Show me somebody complaining about irresponsible dog owners, and I’ll show you a hypocrite. 

@ Will C #3 It has not escaped my attention that you have compared dogs at crags to huge trucks crushing pedestrians.  A little overblown perhaps? 

@ KN and GG (Kristi Noem and Greg Gianforte).  These two seem like a real pair.  In my view they are disgusting people.  I honestly apologize for comparing anybody to them--that's too low.  Nonetheless, I do think that their general attitiude toward animals reflects widespread feelings in soceity, essentially that animals are our property, that we have the right to kill, abuse, or work them as we see fit, that our lives are more valuable than theirs, and that they they are lower animals.  You can see these views in this thread, in the sugestions that all dogs should wear muzzles, or that no dogs should ever be off leash anywhere.  What such views fails to take into account are the mental lives and rights of animals.  I hope in the future we recognize what we have in common with other highly intelligent, social creatures, like elephants, orcas, the great apes, and dogs, among others, and that we treat them with respect. 

@ Bruno the dead horse meme.  The meaning does remain a bit obscure: who is the horse and who is the beater?  What idea, thread, or comment are we talking about?  Anyway, I'm happy to be compared to a horse--they're great creatures.  When that beating is over, I'm going to get up, shake myself off, whinny and neigh loudly, and go play with Luna.

Finally....how do I actually feel about dogs at crags?  I’ve explained several times that I no longer take Luna to crags because I realized that she is too stressed when we dissapear up the rock, but what do I think about other people’s dogs?

Dog bans or leash laws in effect—If there’s a dog ban in a particular area, or there are leash law in effect, then dogs shouldn’t be there, or should only be there on a leash.  Simple.  We all bend or break laws on occasion, but in general, I believe in following the law.

Dog bans or leash laws not in effect—People are free to do as they wish.  They are responsible for their dogs, of course, but we can not make them use leashes, or deamand that they behave in a way we think is correct.  We can talk to people, try to educate them, but we have to leave our self-righteousness at home, because they have every right have a dog or have a dog off leash.  

Environment and access concerns—If there are particular environmental and access concerns, the equation becomes trickier.  I would certainly take these things into account when deciding if or when to bring a dog to a crag, but I would remember that humans will always have a much greater impact on the environment than dogs, which is to say that climbers are the ones impacting the environment, not the dogs we bring.  As above, let’s leave the self-righteousness at home.  

Annoying barking and crazy behavior—Dog that barks incessantly or those than run around in a wild frenzy at crags should not be there, or should be on a leash.  I bet you didn’t think I was going to say that!

Aggression and danger—I’m lucky.  My dog does not have an aggressive bone in her body.  As I have said before, I can litterally open her mouth while she is eating and remove the food. She loves her family, and she’ll bark to alert us is somebody appears suddently, but she just isn’t aggressive.  So, when I used to bring Luna to crags, this was a non-issue.  However, if I had an aggressive or reactive dog, I would absoluety modify my behavior.  Now, as I myself have argued, there are many different views of acceptable behavior for dogs, but I think it’s clear what agresion toward humans looks like.  If you have a reactive and aggrresive dog, the crag’s probably not the best place.  

Food stealing—Again, I’m lucky.  Luna is the most food opriented dog I’ve every met, but she’s so submissive toward people that if she smelled food in your pack she would sit down next to it and gaze intently at you, but she would never go into your things.  She might give you a gentle paw, or lay her head on your leg or arm, while continuing to look into your eyes, but she would never steel your food.  If I had a dog that behaved in a different way, of course, I would make sure my dog didn’t get into other people’s things.

Social contact—Let’s say that Luna, or any other dog, was off leash at a crag, and she came to you and licked your hand, or asked for affection, or put her paws up on your body, in a way that was totally friendly and sociable, but perhaps annoying to some people, or frightening to others.  Well, if she could legally be there, and she wasn’t running around being crazy but was simply socializing, well that’s fine by me.  We can’t be responsible for  everybody’s feelings, and if a calm, gentle, sociable dog is simply interacting with people, and they get angry, that’s their problem.  As I’ve said before, dogs are a part of human life, and we all need to learn how to live with them.  If you don’t like the idea that you might have to interact with dogs, children, or other people, then you shouldn’t go out in public.

Dog poop—everybody’s favorite topic.  Like many people here, I find the amount of poop that dog owners leave behind disgusting.   You have to pick up after your dog—that’s part of the human-dog code of conduct.

That's it. 

Carry on.

Bonus link to Babsi, self proclaimed "best crag dog mom"

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5OPKWKLE2k/?hl=en

FrankPS wrote:

Breed/Bred

Bread

My bad