Max weight hangs vs grade climbed

Not Trevor wrote:

What does this even mean and where are you getting these metrics? I am very confused as boulders go to V17 these days. 

Doesn't the single max hardest move reach somewhere around v14 according to many pros and training orgs? After that it's the number of v13/14 moves that makes the boulder harder, yes? 

So if you're thinking about pulling single moves, most pros would be maxing out in the v14 range to my understanding. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Doesn't the single max hardest move reach somewhere around v14 according to many pros and training orgs? After that it's the number of v13/14 moves that makes the boulder harder, yes? 

That’s most people’s interpretation, yes, and I see your point, but it doesn’t make sense to me to try and correlate an isometric hang to a climbing grade, which requires movement. My issue with assigning a max hang to a grade is that hang ≠ move

So if you're thinking about pulling single moves, most pros would be maxing out in the v14 range to my understanding. 

I would argue this is changing. Burden of Dreams, for example is only like 3-4 moves. If each move was only V13/14 then way more climbers would have been able to ”do all the moves”. Let alone, the strongest climbers in the world (who can flash V14, yes I realize that on those problems the “hardest move” may have been like back to back V12 “moves”, but my point still stands) and taking sessions to do a single move and seasons to do them all. 

"Dite Tebe" is a troll account that posts stupid and weird **** like that in every thread. Just block.

Sorry, don't have any max hang scores to report and I've pretty much only climbed in the gym this year due to work/life. If ya just want numbers, my isometric finger curl maxes at 137lbs per hand and I'm pretty much in the 2019 Moon Board 7B and Kilter 7C range in terms of what I can consistently climb quickly. Funny enough, I know that if I went back to old V9/10 sends or projects, strength-wise I would smash. I'm definitely the strongest I've ever been.

Not Trevor wrote:

I see your point, but it doesn’t make sense to me to try and correlate an isometric hang to a climbing grade, which requires movement. My issue with assigning a max hang to a grade is that hang ≠ move

I think correlating these numbers to performance is just so, so silly. Climbing is a movement and skill sport, so it's more useful to think in terms of capabilities (say, what you can do with a 10mm incut and one foot) than raw, generic numbers. With everyone having access to standardized boards these days, we should be talking about things like the ability to execute certain betas on benchmark climbs, not whether you can hang 80lbs or 100lbs on a 20mm.

The latter isn't even a consistent metric—people hang with wildly different form, which affects whether the demonstration in the exercise will actually be useful in the person's climbing. You really know this when you see it: the climber absolutely owning a 10mm bodyweight hang, knuckles up and pads down, versus someone desperately clinging to that edge with 50lbs added. The former is just so much more useful and indicative of actual climbing ability, but it doesn't come across in the raw numbers.

Pandy Facklerwrote:

This is an interesting topic, and I'm glad it hasn't devolved into a typical dumpster fire.

145 lbs, max hang +60 lbs, 20 mm lattice rung, half crimp.

Max redpoint 13d (two of them), but they were both multi-season projects that I projected into submission and suited my strengths - lots of checkpoints, mostly endurance, nothing harder than V6 on route.  I've sent many more 13c's, some fairly quickly, and over a wider-range of styles.

Brian, with all due respect, as a person who is a boulderer who rope climbs in the summer…as well as someone who has chatted with you and been on the same routes as you in Rifle and Ten Sleep for many seasons. I wholeheartedly disagree that there hasn’t been anything harder than V6 on the 5.13c’s and up you’ve sent. You’re a beast, don’t sandbag the rest of us like this lol

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

That’s most people’s interpretation, yes, and I see your point, but it doesn’t make sense to me to try and correlate an isometric hang to a climbing grade, which requires movement. My issue with assigning a max hang to a grade is that hang ≠ move

I would argue this is changing. Burden of Dreams, for example is only like 3-4 moves. If each move was only V13/14 then way more climbers would have been able to ”do all the moves”. Let alone, the strongest climbers in the world (who can flash V14, yes I realize that on those problems the “hardest move may have been like back to back V12 “moves”, but my point still stands) and taking sessions to do a single move and seasons to do them all. 

I project 5.10 so I don't know shit about shit, but Bosi said he thinks the hardest move on Burden is V14 didn't he? 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I project 5.10 so I don't know shit about shit, but Bosi said he thinks the hardest move on Burden is V14 didn't he? 

No idea. That’s not my point regarding max hang metrics and climbing grades. Though, that would be a great candidate as a topic for MP’s next dumpster fire thread. Crazy to me to think that the hardest move on a V17 is three grades easier than the final grade when it’s only 3 moves in it’s totality...

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

Brian, with all due respect, as a person who is a boulderer who rope climbs in the summer…as well as someone who has chatted with you and been on the same routes as you in Rifle and Ten Sleep for many seasons. I wholeheartedly disagree that there hasn’t been anything harder than V6 on the 5.13c’s and up you’ve sent. You’re a beast, don’t sandbag the rest of us like this lol

Well, thanks for the kind words! I guess the real pandora's box is how difficult it is to accurately rate boulder problems on routes. For example, I've heard the final crux of Choose Life (13c) in the Flatirons be called anything from V5-V9. All I know is that when I go to places like Hueco Tanks and Joe's and see how hard people are climbing, and how hard I have to try on V3-V6 I'm like, "Surely, I've never climbed harder than a V6 on route!" But really, if you use something like Darth Grader to break down routes, it's pretty amazing how low the boulder problems end up being to meet the final grade. Kind of a fun practice in your ability to accurately describe a route.

Pandy Facklerwrote:

Well, thanks for the kind words! I guess the real pandora's box is how difficult it is to accurately rate boulder problems on routes. For example, I've heard the final crux of Choose Life (13c) in the Flatirons be called anything from V5-V9. All I know is that when I go to places like Hueco Tanks and Joe's and see how hard people are climbing, and how hard I have to try on V3-V6 I'm like, "Surely, I've never climbed harder than a V6 on route!" But really, if you use something like Darth Grader to break down routes, it's pretty amazing how low the boulder problems end up being to meet the final grade. Kind of a fun practice in your ability to accurately describe a route.

I’m another who boulders harder on a route than on an actual boulder. V5 on a route is not a huge deal for me, but on a boulder, V5 tends to be a complete bear. I think that it is mostly related to tactics. On a rope, I get to work out the beta until it reliably goes. However, when bouldering, you don’t get to work on beta…you just go splat, and start over from scratch. In the converse, I’ve seen low double-digit boulderers have a rough time with relatively easy boulder problem cruxes on routes. 

Frank Steinwrote:

I’m another who boulders harder on a route than on an actual boulder. V5 on a route is not a huge deal for me, but on a boulder, V5 tends to be a complete bear. I think that it is mostly related to tactics. On a rope, I get to work out the beta until it reliably goes. However, when bouldering, you don’t get to work on beta…you just go splat, and start over from scratch. In the converse, I’ve seen low double-digit boulderers have a rough time with relatively easy boulder problem cruxes on routes. 

You’re crazy! You gotta climb all the way up the dang route to project boulders on a sport route! Lol 

Pandy Facklerwrote:

Well, thanks for the kind words! I guess the real pandora's box is how difficult it is to accurately rate boulder problems on routes. For example, I've heard the final crux of Choose Life (13c) in the Flatirons be called anything from V5-V9. All I know is that when I go to places like Hueco Tanks and Joe's and see how hard people are climbing, and how hard I have to try on V3-V6 I'm like, "Surely, I've never climbed harder than a V6 on route!" But really, if you use something like Darth Grader to break down routes, it's pretty amazing how low the boulder problems end up being to meet the final grade. Kind of a fun practice in your ability to accurately describe a route.

you appear to be an expert level route climber. if you put as much time into boulders you would likely develop those same skills on how to simply get shit done. those intangibles that not all people possess don't show up on the max hang vs grade climbed charts, and are extremely important. i know people who consistently climb v8/9 outdoors and can't climb 13-. that is bizarre to me

Dane Bwrote:

you appear to be an expert level route climber. if you put as much time into boulders you would likely develop those same skills on how to simply get shit done. those intangibles that not all people possess don't show up on the max hang vs grade climbed charts, and are extremely important. i know people who consistently climb v8/9 outdoors and can't climb 13-. that is bizarre to me

I totally agree with all of that. I also find it bizarre when I see people climbing double-digits in the gym and then projecting mid-5.12 in Rifle. Same with people who can max hang +100 lbs, and none of it transfers to climbing performance. I think the biggest takeaway is that time spent on real rock will help you become a good rock climber. That being said, I can't wrap my head around ever being able to consistently climb double digit boulders, but maybe I'll be lucky to do one or two...

I'm around 145 lbs. I can barely do a one hand hang on a 20mm edge (like 5 seconds at best), but I haven't trained consistently in several years. Even at my best, I think my one-hand hang on a 20mm edge was +10 lbs for a few seconds. I can redpoint around 14b currently in a reasonable time and V10 usually takes a session or two; best onsight is 13c and typically onsight up around 13a. I climb outside much more than indoors. 

Pandy Facklerwrote:

I think the biggest takeaway is that time spent on real rock will help you become a good rock climber. That being said, I can't wrap my head around ever being able to consistently climb double digit boulders, but maybe I'll be lucky to do one or two...

Jessie is also a good example of the spend time on rock and become a good rock climber sentiment. It's of the utmost importance.

On the double digit boulders, I have to wonder if you could do that, then what grades would you be climbing with your route climbing skills. Not to crazy to think you are breaking into 14a/b without it being a mega project and epic 

Dane Bwrote:

you appear to be an expert level route climber. if you put as much time into boulders you would likely develop those same skills on how to simply get shit done. those intangibles that not all people possess don't show up on the max hang vs grade climbed charts, and are extremely important. i know people who consistently climb v8/9 outdoors and can't climb 13-. that is bizarre to me

Can’t or hasn’t? I think, more often than not, it comes down to time. I feel like it is just as common to see people like Bryan as it is to see people like your examples. They just spend more time doing one discipline over the other. It’s just so hard to climb at your limit in multiple disciplines due to the amount of time it requires to do so. I think it was Dru Mack who climbed 5.14a well before ever doing a V8 just because he never got on boulders, not because he wasn’t able to. 

Jadidor Tlhaowrote:

to be fair, +65 for someone at 165 means v7 at best. +125 for someone 135 is much closer to a true v10 - that is, someone who can consistently send a v10 anywhere. while it's possible to send a v10 with v7 fingers, it'd mostly come down to cherry picking the few v10s that don't require finger strength.

of dozens of friends - all can one arm an 18mm edge when they sent v10. of the few v12 climbers i've met, they could all add weight to their one armed 18mm hangs. this is consistent with the countless data points accumulated by polls on social media as well as the professional coaching companies. 

a one armed hang on 18mm isn't That impressive. it's only impressive considering all the other requirements for v10 - one armed pullups, 147 on the campus board, l sits, etc. it's only impressive on these forums, where saying 'x is aid' is peak humor. he data is why serious discussions with coaching companies has helped a lot of climbers focus on weaknesses, which if you're really looking to improve, there are better resources online.

Not sure if trolling but these are not at all the requirements for V10. Those metrics are waaaay more than you need. I can't think of any V10s that would require having the strength for a one-arm, or one-arm hanging an 18mm edge. That's more in the realm of V13 climber strength and with good technique... Technique, mindset/mental game, body awareness, and full body strength are way more important than simple body metrics such as 18mm edge hangs and L-sits in my opinion. You're as strong as the weakest tool in your toolbox.

T Dwrote:

Not sure if trolling but these are not at all the requirements for V10. Those metrics are waaaay more than you need. I can't think of any V10s that would require having the strength for a one-arm, or one-arm hanging an 18mm edge. That's more in the realm of V13 climber strength and with good technique... Technique, mindset/mental game, body awareness, and full body strength are way more important than simple body metrics such as 18mm edge hangs and L-sits in my opinion. You're as strong as the weakest tool in your toolbox.

I agree with everything you’ve said except the part where there aren’t many V10’s that would require having the strength to one-arm pull up and/or hang one-arm on 18mm. Albeit, it’s hard to measure as you typically have another hand/foot on the wall, as well as variables with height, mobility, etc. but there are definitely several V10’s  that I definitely would not have done moves on, or sent, if it had not been for single sided training…whether that be single arm hangs or single arm pull ups. I think, for me, it’s more about how those things translate to climbing. I agree you won’t ever be required to do an isolated one armed pull up on a V10 (or any climb) but having that strength translate into being able to do specific moves is something I think is a thing….but maybe all of that is just because I‘m shorter and have to be more dynamic on bigger moves which results in loading one hand more and bigger pull throughs.

Either way, like you said…there’s not really any metric that means you will or is required to send a boulder. You’re only as strong as your weakness….unless you only seek out climbs within your style   

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I agree with everything you’ve said except the part where there aren’t many V10’s that would require having the strength to one-arm pull up and/or hang one-arm on 18mm. Albeit, it’s hard to measure as you typically have another hand/foot on the wall, as well as variables with height, mobility, etc. but there are definitely several V10’s  that I definitely would not have done moves on, or sent, if it had not been for single sided training…whether that be single arm hangs or single arm pull ups. I think, for me, it’s more about how those things translate to climbing. I agree you won’t ever be required to do an isolated one armed pull up on a V10 (or any climb) but having that strength translate into being able to do specific moves is something I think is a thing….but maybe all of that is just because I‘m shorter and have to be more dynamic on bigger moves which results in loading one hand more and bigger pull throughs.

Either way, like you said…there’s not really any metric that means you will or is required to send a boulder. You’re only as strong as your weakness….unless you only seek out climbs within your style  

More strength obviously is not a bad thing, but I think it's wild that people totally forget about female climbers in these discussions. I know a few women climbing V10+, including one who's climbed V12, who could not come anywhere near doing a one-arm pull-up or hanging an edge one-handed. I also have a fairly well-known friend who consistently climbs double-digits up to V12 who also can't do either of those things. It's all trade-offs, though—they don't have that kind of raw pulling power, but everyone I'm thinking of has strong, mobile hips and very good active hand strength.

I get why people think a certain number corresponds to being able to climb "any V10, anywhere", if only because that does seem to be true for the commercial training boards everyone's familiar with these days. But I truly cannot think of a single outdoor V10 that strictly requires that level of strength. Even the very physical ones I've tried, like Center Direct in Bishop or Salad Shooter in Squamish, don't require that. What are some examples?

Dan Schmidtwrote:

More strength obviously is not a bad thing, but I think it's wild that people totally forget about female climbers in these discussions. I know a few women climbing V10+, including one who's climbed V12, who could not come anywhere near doing a one-arm pull-up or hanging an edge one-handed. I also have a fairly well-known friend who consistently climbs double-digits up to V12 who also can't do either of those things. It's all trade-offs, though—they don't have that kind of raw pulling power, but everyone I'm thinking of has strong, mobile hips and very good active hand strength.

I mean Dave Graham climbed V14 before ever doing a one arm pull up didn’t he? None of what you said necessarily negates my previous post though. I just said there are definitely V10’s, for me, that more-or-less required those attributes to send. Additionally, those females that can’t one arm pull up, likely have significantly better mobility than their male counterparts, and in turn can position their body in ways that do not require the same strength as their non-mobile counterparts. Just like my post, all of these things you listed are also anecdotal. We would need some sort of data from lattice or other ”source” to get a better idea overall. 

I get why people think a certain number corresponds to being able to climb "any V10, anywhere", if only because that does seem to be true for the commercial training boards everyone's familiar with these days. But I truly cannot think of a single outdoor V10 that strictly requires that level of strength. Even the very physical ones I've tried, like Center Direct in Bishop or Salad Shooter in Squamish, don't require that. What are some examples?

Again, this would come down to many other factors, which is also why these metrics are not good examples for specific grades. For example, if I couldn’t do the third or fourth (I can’t remember which it is) move to the right hand rail, on Center Direct, while keeping my feet on then I would literally be hanging on an edge close to 18mm with nearly all of my weight on one hand. I’ve never been on Salad Shooter, but it just looks like a 1-5 one move wonder. As far as my examples, off the top of my head, speaking only of one’s that most people would recognize, I would say hanging on an 18mm translates well to Trent’s Mom (the move to the rail near the end) as I have to cut feet. Red Wave In Vegas as well. 

In any regard, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; these metrics of isometrics (one arm pull ups excluded) are silly to try and correlate to grades as climbing requires movement.  

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

We would need some sort of data from lattice or other ”source” to get a better idea overall. 

Statistics is a great place to start.

I can hang 5 secs on 20mm with +90lbs on my 172lbs body.  Best redpoint outside is 12a.