PSA: Petzl words on top belaying with a grigri

i think the key thing using a grigri like this is to always have control of the brake strand.  i was at red rocks a long time ago a few pitches up on something on black velvet wall, and a guy on a route next to me was belaying someone up.  he let go of the brake strand to do something and the weight of the rope down to the climber below started pulling the rope through the grigri. it started slow but quickly sped up and dumped a ton of slack. he had a hard time getting control of the situation because the rope was just ripping off his stack. i estimate that by the time he got his shit together there was probably 50 feet of slack out and his partner was going ape shit.

sure, we have all of these devices, but at the end of the day keeping a grip on the brake strand is an ounce of prevention...

slimwrote:

i think the key thing using a grigri like this is to always have control of the brake strand.  i was at red rocks a long time ago a few pitches up on something on black velvet wall, and a guy on a route next to me was belaying someone up.  he let go of the brake strand to do something and the weight of the rope down to the climber below started pulling the rope through the grigri. it started slow but quickly sped up and dumped a ton of slack. he had a hard time getting control of the situation because the rope was just ripping off his stack. i estimate that by the time he got his shit together there was probably 50 feet of slack out and his partner was going ape shit.

sure, we have all of these devices, but at the end of the day keeping a grip on the brake strand is an ounce of prevention...

This story highlights the core issue of the Gri, it has “handling issues” that the fanboys ignore because its never happened to them. Petzl never explicitly said you could take your hands off the break but wink, wink, you *probably* could. 

The Gri was originally pushed as the device to solve all your belay problems but users used it beyond what it was intended for, simple sport climbing, and Petzl has been trying to walk that back for 20 years.

Tradibanwrote:

This story highlights the core issue of the Gri, it has “handling issues” that the fanboys ignore because its never happened to them.

The Gri was originally pushed as the device to solve all your belay problems but users used it beyond what it was intended for, simple sport climbing, and Petzl has been trying to walk that back for 20 years.

These "handling issues" are exactly the same as the "handling issues" you have when using an ATC to belay a leader as normal from the ground. If you oppose this usage then you should similarly oppose belaying the leader with an ATC. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

These "handling issues" are exactly the same as the "handling issues" you have when using an ATC to belay a leader as normal from the ground. If you oppose this usage then you should similarly oppose belaying the leader with an ATC. 

Apples to oranges Ricky, but the real issue is the idea that the Gri is great for all these different scenarios and as a result the brake hand etc is neglected.

Tradibanwrote:

Apples to oranges Ricky, but the real issue is the idea that the Gri is great for all these different scenarios and as a result the brake hand etc is neglected.

Both Petzl and climbing educators are very good at telling you that it is an assisted braking device and not an automatic braking device. I'm not sure why we're putting so much stock into people who insist on ignoring all the advice they get. They're out there, and I hope their guardian angels are paying attention, but what can you do about it? You can give them more information, but they already have the information. 

The fact that some people insist on using devices wrong doesn't impact me, my behavior, or how I think we should think or discuss these devices. People go hands free on ATCs while belaying leaders all the time too, my dad scares the ever loving shit out of me with his belaying but "it's worked fine for 40 years" and "I don't understand why good enough isn't good enough." (He uses an old school belay technique where 30-50% of the time he absolutely will not catch you in a leader fall)

The fact that my dad is a moron when it comes to ATCs doesn't make me hate ATCs, it just makes me treat climbing with him like free soloing, which he claims builds character. Yup, it definitely does do that. 

Some people are idiots when it comes to certain things. Let them be idiots and let's move on without them. 

I wouldn't expect you of all people to be so hung up on catering to idiots. The gyms, the books, the guides, the mentors, they're all telling people to not let go of the brake strand. Stop putting this on the Grigri, this F goes to humanity. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Both Petzl and climbing educators are very good at telling you that it is an assisted braking device and not an automatic braking device. I'm not sure why we're putting so much stock into people who insist on ignoring all the advice they get. They're out there, and I hope their guardian angels are paying attention, but what can you do about it? You can give them more information, but they already have the information. 

The fact that some people insist on using devices wrong doesn't impact me, my behavior, or how I think we should think or discuss these devices. People go hands free on ATCs while belaying leaders all the time too, my dad scares the ever loving shit out of me with his belaying but "it's worked fine for 40 years" and "I don't understand why good enough isn't good enough." (He uses an old school belay technique where 30-50% of the time he absolutely will not catch you in a leader fall)

The fact that my dad is a moron when it comes to ATCs doesn't make me hate ATCs, it just makes me treat climbing with him like free soloing, which he claims builds character. Yup, it definitely does do that. 

Some people are idiots when it comes to certain things. Let them be idiots and let's move on without them. 

I wouldn't expect you of all people to be so hung up on catering to idiots. The gyms, the books, the guides, the mentors, they're all telling people to not let go of the brake strand. Stop putting this on the Grigri, this F goes to humanity. 

Let me give you an example Ricky, in the very beginning it was drop city, so much so that Petzl had to issue new instructions on how to use their device. 

The new instructions were to curl your finger underneath the flange and place your thumb on the back of the cam so that your hand would be on the brake strand at all times and your thumb theoretically would not be strong enough to hold down the cam by itself.

This was a silly and obvious hack job, placing a Band-Aid on an obviously flawed device, but they were already committed to the design, and people were buying it in hordes anyway.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

If you treat it like an ATC it will work just as well as an ATC. 

Dude, I'm currently getting over some chronic health issues and spending most of my time bored as hell at home, if you want to take this to me attaching my GF's adorable little 3 lb weights to a rope and grigri to prove that a GriGri is nearly always superior to an ATC in the top down configuration I swear to god I will have the video uploaded to YouTube before you can say myalgic encephalomilatis. I have ropes from 8.9-10.5mm and am not afraid to ruin the porch of my single wide mobile home trailer in taking falls in the pursuit of proving Tradi obviously wrong. Please don't tell the GF though, she's strangely invested in that stupid porch. 

myalgic encephalomilatis

Tradibanwrote:

Let me give you an example Ricky, in the very beginning it was drop city, so much so that Petzl had to issue new instructions on how to use their device. 

Fricking Mad Max, Ricky! You had to wear a bomb suit just to get round the crags, my boi!

Re: Tradi

People were originally belaying with sticht plate and ATCs with brake strand up, thinking they functioned like munter hitches, your argument is... meh.

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

Re: Tradi

People were originally belaying with sticht plate and ATCs with brake strand up, thinking they functioned like munter hitches, your argument is... meh.

That problem is based on muscle memory, the Gri problem is based on everyone’s natural panic motion (to contract).

I think people are treating this as a DO NOT from petzel, they say less than ideal.  Lets be honest how many of us do things that are less than ideal to save time for convience or whatever.  I am sure no one for example uses lockers on their gear anchors, steel quick draws, never ties in with a bowline, clips in short to a cam, I could go on and on.  
My $0.02- Be aware of gri gri failure modes, many can be solved with good anchor bulding or placement.  If you cannot solve them use a different device or a munter.  There is a really cool auto locking munter that I have been wanting to try in the real world.  

Watch cam possibly getting pushed down 

Dont let go of the breakstrand (you wouldn't lead belay like this why would you top hand from this

Be careful when lowering.  

You do all of this stuff and your prolly not going to die.  

Bailey Nicholsonwrote:

I think people are treating this as a DO NOT from petzel, they say less than ideal.  Lets be honest how many of us do things that are less than ideal to save time for convience or whatever.  I am sure no one for example uses lockers on their gear anchors, steel quick draws, never ties in with a bowline, clips in short to a cam, I could go on and on.  
My $0.02- Be aware of gri gri failure modes, many can be solved with good anchor bulding or placement.  If you cannot solve them use a different device or a munter.  There is a really cool auto locking munter that I have been wanting to try in the real world.  

Watch cam possibly getting pushed down 

Dont let go of the breakstrand (you wouldn't lead belay like this why would you top hand from this

Be careful when lowering.  

You do all of this stuff and your prolly not going to die.  

That’s just the point, you have to be extra careful with the Gri and people, as you dutifully point out, aren’t good at being extra careful.

Just be careful in climbing, at the end of the day with lower offs, gyms, gri gris(for sport) pretied quads its gotten safer but we are still playing at heights. 

There are a zillion ways to mess up just try to minimize the ones you can and apply the best technique you can for the given situation. 

I like to make my lap coils way longer when using the Gri Gri so that most of the time there’s more rope weight pulling on the break side. Imo this goes a long way in decreasing the chances of a slip.

Jacob Kantorwrote:

I like to make my lap coils way longer when using the Gri Gri so that most of the time there’s more rope weight pulling on the break side. Imo this goes a long way in decreasing the chances of a slip.

Correct, the Gri needs “kid gloves”.

I hear a lot of what your saying, and I have been caught by people giving me hip belays (granted it was on top rope).  In that case the person giving the belay had lived almost 4 times as long as me, developed the crag in the early 70, local legend etc..  I am not going to say no belay device masks all flaws or a good belayer can't be safe with a variety of devices.  But It seems to me, both as someone who spends a lot of time ranking "imperical statements" and a climber, that is fair to say that certain devices can give a greater margin of error or convince.  Mechnanical advantage is just that an advantage.  

That being said there are times when I believe that certian devices or strategies are the objective best.  But in general a wide variety of techniques and skills can achieve the task with a reliable  safety margin.  

Thanks, 

My time series proff would say no
My parents would say stop climbing and do your time series ;)

Tradibanwrote:

Your opinion doesn’t matter, Petzl themselves are discouraging the use of a top down belay.

Do you have a link to that? I see them showing both methods, and just advising that you “Pay attention to the position of the GRIGRI” on the petzl website

Mr Wongburgerwrote:

Do you have a link to that? I see them showing both methods, and just advising that you “Pay attention to the position of the GRIGRI” on the petzl website

The answer is no.  He goes off on this tangent every few years and mis-states what petzl says as much as possible.  You know, to help save the hundreds of people dying from gri gri top belays every year. 

No belay device is ever hands free.  Theoretically gri gri failures are possible with an ATC as well... etc.  

TLDR: Keep a hand on the brake (or tie a knot), set it up correctly...... with ANY belay device.  End of story.