PSA: Petzl words on top belaying with a grigri

Apologies to all who have seen this before, but lately people on this forum are asking "why wouldn't you ?" (and can't be responded to because that thread is locked).

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-a-second-directly-off-a-fixed-anchor-at-the-belay-station

"This method of belaying the second is less than ideal: in this position, the GRIGRI's braking action on the rope is not optimal (especially with thin ropes). In addition, the risk of blocking the cam is greater."

If Petzl's words sound vague, I believe they mean 2 things:
(1) the device is (to a 1st approximation) acceleration-triggered, so the cam is less likely to engage for a TR fall than for a lead fall
(2) the brake strand exit angle matters, and it's not good in the TR belay scenario

I.e. keeping a hand on the brake strand is more important in this scenario than it is in other grigri scenarios you may be familiar with.

For completeness, the previous thread (which I'm not bumping because it has morphed into a TRS thread) was mountainproject.com/forum/t…

The previous thread covers it, you can use the Gri for a top down belay but you really shouldn’t.

The Gri is good for a narrow scope of circumstances, but the fan boys will goo on it for everything.

Re: blocking the cam against rock, etc... this is easily fixable in many circumstances by good belay stance choice and anchor configuration. Ideally, ATC-Guide / GiGi, etc also don't touch the rock when top belaying.

Angle of the brake strand of rope is different and will result in different brake forces, especially on small enough ropes for the cam to not fully pinch them sufficiently... in which case, yeah, you should use a device that will pinch the ropes sufficiently, or use different ropes, or redirect so you can have a more ideal brake hand position and be OK with doubling the force on the anchor (2:1 mechanical advantage situation).

I like the Grigri for top rope belay off of an anchor because it is low friction but I can totally see why Petzl urges caution while doing it. If your hand is not on the belay strand and your climber weights the rope it is possible for the cam in the Grigri to not engage. In my opinion this is more common when the second slowly weights the Grigri; a sudden or fast fall tends to have a better chance of engaging the Grigri's cam in this scenario. This is just another reason to not take your hand off the brake strand, but ESPECIALLY not while belaying with a Grigri off an anchor from the top.

Tradibanwrote:

The previous thread covers it, you can use the Gri for a top down belay but you really shouldn’t.

The Gri is good for a narrow scope of circumstances, but the fan boys will goo on it for everything.

Maybe with a brand new super skinny dry treated rope the grigri will slip a bit before it engages if the belayer doesn't have a firm grip on the brake strand. This is not a compelling enough reason to me and many others to not use a grigri when belaying from above. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Maybe with a brand new super skinny dry treated rope the grigri will slip a bit before it engages if the belayer doesn't have a firm grip on the brake strand. This is not a compelling enough reason to me and many others to not use a grigri when belaying from above. 

Your opinion doesn’t matter, Petzl themselves are discouraging the use of a top down belay.

Tradibanwrote:

Your opinion doesn’t matter, Petzl themselves are discouraging the use of a top down belay.

If you treat it like an ATC it will work just as well as an ATC. 

Dude, I'm currently getting over some chronic health issues and spending most of my time bored as hell at home, if you want to take this to me attaching my GF's adorable little 3 lb weights to a rope and grigri to prove that a GriGri is nearly always superior to an ATC in the top down configuration I swear to god I will have the video uploaded to YouTube before you can say myalgic encephalomilatis. I have ropes from 8.9-10.5mm and am not afraid to ruin the porch of my single wide mobile home trailer in taking falls in the pursuit of proving Tradi obviously wrong. Please don't tell the GF though, she's strangely invested in that stupid porch. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Tradi obviously wrong. 

Shocking!

Article

From another article on the Petzl site, showing the redirect. Personally I only add a redirect if I need to lower my follower. I've caught plenty of falls from above without issue, just don't let go of the brake stand. 

My standard operating procedure for multi pitch is to belay the leader with a gri gri and to belay the follower with an atc guide in guide mode off the anchor. That way, you only need to bring one gri gri for the party. Basically, you swap the devices back and forth every belay. It’s quite elegant.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

If you treat it like an ATC it will work just as well as an ATC. 

Dude, I'm currently getting over some chronic health issues and spending most of my time bored as hell at home, if you want to take this to me attaching my GF's adorable little 3 lb weights to a rope and grigri to prove that a GriGri is nearly always superior to an ATC in the top down configuration I swear to god I will have the video uploaded to YouTube before you can say myalgic encephalomilatis. I have ropes from 8.9-10.5mm and am not afraid to ruin the porch of my single wide mobile home trailer in taking falls in the pursuit of proving Tradi obviously wrong. Please don't tell the GF though, she's strangely invested in that stupid porch. 

Ricky, your YouTube science will prove nothing. Petzl has massive feedback and testing and warns against the practice of a top down belay based on that data (although a redirect will help, it can be awkward in certain situations).

Furthermore a method could work 1000 times safely and fail on the 1001. It only takes once to die. 

Tradibanwrote: Furthermore a method could work 1000 times safely and fail on the 1001. It only takes once to die. 

Prove it. 

Tradibanwrote:

Ricky, your YouTube science will prove nothing. Petzl has massive feedback and testing and warns against the practice of a top down belay based on that data (although a redirect will help, it can be awkward in certain situations).

Furthermore a method could work 1000 times safely and fail on the 1001. It only takes once to die. 

Belaying from above with a grigri has become the standard for a great many of us. Weird how there's never been a single accident report from that. 

Weird niche rope soloing devices that get relatively tiny usage all have failure modes that have been found the hard way through usage... But not the grigri in one of its most common applications? 

Getouttahere 

The gri gri is perfect for top fixed point belays if you have a good anchor. I’m a total fanboy and so long as you use some common sense and understand how the device works, its great. All you fear mongerers saying there is a way the gri gri doesn’t work and could kill you if used improperly, yeah, ofc. I’ve seen ropes get cut, rocks crack helmets, cams blow, bolts fall out of the hole, carabiners fail in some weird ways, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use these pieces of equipment.  Have you seen hownot2’s videos of him opening every carabiner on the market with a sharp tug of a rope? Y’all are still using carabiners, ropes, cams, bolts, helmets, etc. petzl doesn’t say you shouldn’t do a single point top belay with a gri gri, just be cautious of things that might make it not work. I will sleep easy and belay from the top. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Belaying from above with a grigri has become the standard for a great many of us. Weird how there's never been a single accident report from that. 

Weird niche rope soloing devices that get relatively tiny usage all have failure modes that have been found the hard way through usage... But not the grigri in one of its most common applications? 

Getouttahere 

Again, Petzl is warning against using the Gri that way. They have way more resources and research than any of the YouTube scientists. Just because you haven’t heard of it happening or can’t recreate the failure on your porch doesn’t mean it isn’t possible or hasn’t happened already.

It’s a free country, fanboys can use the Gri as they wish but it’s not a magical device that will always keep you or your partner safe. 

Tradibanwrote:

Again, Petzl is warning against using the Gri that way. They have way more resources and research than any of the YouTube scientists. Just because you haven’t heard of it happening or can’t recreate the failure on your porch doesn’t mean it isn’t possible or hasn’t happened already.

It’s a free country, fanboys can use the Gri as they wish but it’s not a magical device that will always keep you or your partner safe. 

Saying a method is not optimal is hardly a warning. There are warnings about specific failures that can happen in this configuration, but having the device fixed to the anchor if it is clean and properly oriented is completely safe with proper belay technique. Or as safe as any other method. Yeah, the cam might not engage all by itself well on super thin ropes, and you need to watch the carabiner to prevent cross loading, but thats the case with any other method too.  And there is no magical way to keep your partner safe, you have to stay attentive and be proactive. gri gris are great tools for multipitch climbing. 

I can't believe my partners and I have survived all these years belaying from the top with gri-gri while also keeping an eye out for failure modes. 

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

Article

From another article on the Petzl site, showing the redirect. Personally I only add a redirect if I need to lower my follower. I've caught plenty of falls from above without issue, just don't let go of the brake stand. 

Redirecting with the grigri on the anchor and the brake strand going above the grigri also works to increase friction (I assume petzl’s method is preferred because it also resolves the grigri/rock interference failure mode.)

Oh boy. Glad we can finally talk about this guys. Take a knee. You see what Pierre is doing wrong here?

1. Gonna want those biners facing out. It’s opposite and opposed, not OR opposed.
2. That rope should be against the spine, not the gate.

3. A clove hitch has never slipped….yet. Might as well back it up. Only takes 90 seconds and could save your life.

4. Tie in, and tuck it. No loose tails on my ship. Figure 8’s don't often untie but you never know.

5. That gri-gri is for right handed people. Don’t run the brake strand over the handle. If you are left handed, just boulder.

6. The weight discrepancy here is inappropriate. The follower is way too small to belay that leader safely.

7. The only good thing I actually see here is using a stainless quick link to attach the Gri-Gri. Good job.

Rprops has it figured out. The petzl guy gonna die.