Wear helmets, ye kids especially

Hank Hudleywrote:

I don't think a Helmet is gonna do much for my 10yo when he solos.

It actually could, by preventing a fall if beamed on the head by a small rock.

Aaaaaand turning notifications off for this thread now. Thanks Danny very cool!

Tanner Jameswrote:

Aaaaaand turning notifications off for this thread now. Thanks Danny very cool!

We all have to play our part for a better future!

Tradiban wrote:

Crying that the goal posts moved means…..

Tradiban wins again!

First you said it was bad science, then you shifted gears and complained that it actually wasn't proving what you're personally interested in--> definitional moving of goal posts. 

If the helmet works when my head is flat against the ground and a 10 pound boulder is dropped from 10m, I think its gonna be way better for me to have a helmet on then not if I fall into a backstep and smash my head against the wall (had a close call like this), or rip a piece on a hard line (have done this multiple times), fall into a backstep and flip and hit the wall or hit the deck (have done the former, almost the latter), or if I'm on a new route and rip off a hold (have done this), or go off route and rip a hold (have done this), or if I'm belaying and my climber sends something down at me (has happened to me many times). No matter how experienced you are, shit happens. Just talk to someone old enough who has 20 dead buddies to climbing, and as your tying in, or setting up the grigri, or putting on your helmet, learning the point of each one because he has a friend who died who neglected something or just had bad luck (Yes, I've had the fortune of having of such a partner who's been climbing for 50+ years).

Todd Berlier wrote:

this is so stupid and you've really just gone completely off the rails. even if after someone died and all the water content from the human body was removed it still would not fit into a helmet. 

We are talking about children here.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

First you said it was bad science, then you shifted gears and complained that it actually wasn't proving what you're personally interested in--> definitional moving of goal posts. 

I said it was bad science AND irrelevant.

Really hard Math problem for Tradiban that he keeps on getting wrong:
A friend of a parter was at a classic sport crag and was just chilling at the base, not climbing, not wearing a helmet. Randomly a rock, pretty small, came down and pierced her skull and damaged her brain. She lost a good deal of memory and mental function (True story). So if a 10 pound rock from a similar height hits a Mellon strapped with a helmet and survives, would the woman have likely prevented damage if the small rock, an order of magnitude less than 10 pounds had hit her helmet?

Tradiban's answer:

bad science AND irrelevant.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Really hard Math problem for Tradiban that he keeps on getting wrong:
A friend of a parter was at a classic sport crag and was just chilling at the base, not climbing, not wearing a helmet. Randomly a rock, pretty small, came down and pierced her skull and damaged her brain. She lost a good deal of memory and mental function (True story). So if a 10 pound rock from a similar height hits a Mellon strapped with a helmet and survives, would the woman have likely prevented damage if the small rock, an order of magnitude less than 10 pounds had hit her helmet?

Tradiban's answer:

Are you saying you always wear your helmet at the bottom of the crag?

Ay, there’s the rub. Head danger is everywhere, so where do you draw the line for wearing a helmet or not?

Just going to drop this here…. I think Mr. Clemens would have gleefully perused many a mountain project thread, popcorn in hand. 

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

Mark Twain

Now get out and climb something (preferably with a helmet…)

Back in the late 80s early 90s I never wore a helmet, heck I never saw anybody wear one, Maybe it was just a Cali thing idk, BUT I did “borrow” a couple hard hats from my employer to do Whitney Portal stuff so maybe I still had a few brain cells up there, smoked (and drank) most of em away, But after decades of healing and awareness I would definitely don one now depending on the spicyness/diceyness of the climb and terrain above…

Tradibanwrote:

Are you saying you always wear your helmet at the bottom of the crag?

Ay, there’s the rub. Head danger is everywhere, so where do you draw the line for wearing a helmet or not?

When I’m out climbing, my helmet is on. Just like a construction worker in a hard hat zone.

First thing I do when I get to the base of any wall, for a multi or cragging, is put on my helmet, like a construction worker going to work. I wear my helmet when I’m belaying, when I’m climbing, when Im chilling at the base of the wall, or even when I’m passing along a cliffline on the way to or out of a wall.

Sometimes I’ll wear it on an approach or descent. I know an AMGA guide who took a 60 foot tumble and broke their pelvis and a bunch of other bones, but they were wearing a helmet and didnt break their skull. Climbers die all the time on that easy 4th class scrambling terrain.

I wear my helmet when I’m soloing too. Rockfall is the most unpredictable and uncontrollable part of climbing, as far as I can tell.

Climbing is inherently dangerous. So too, inherent measures must be taken to address it, whenever possible. One simple, unobtrusive, pain free way is to wear a helmet.

Tradibanwrote:

Are you saying you always wear your helmet at the bottom of the crag?

Ay, there’s the rub. Head danger is everywhere, so where do you draw the line for wearing a helmet or not?

Here to join the, "always wears helmet at the crag," group.   It's the first thing I have my son do when we get to the crag, first thing my wife does, and I encourage anyone else we are climbing with to do the same.  

There are more than enough documented cases of people getting hit by something at the base of their crag, and I've seen enough small rocks, cams, carabiners, belay devices, etc, fall from above that I'd rather be safe than bleeding from the head or worse.  

My real-life proof-of-concept comes from a couple of years ago when my wife was just standing at the base of the crag on a large, flat boulder that was frequently used for belaying and/or hanging out, when the belayer on a nearby route slipped off their belay platform and pendulum swung into my wife.  The belayer lifted my wife off her feet and off the boulder and my wife landed flat on her back on rock on a hillside from about 8 feet off the ground.  She certainly hit her head, but had no injuries there because she had her helmet on.  She was still carried out with concern for back injury, which luckily ended up "only" being six broken ribs.  

Tradiban wrote:

But do you wear it in the gym? Based on your logic you should be.

If leading or belaying i definitely would want to as flipping and hitting the wall is still a hazard. go watch the hardiseasy video i linked for some examples of pro comp climbers flipping, and situations where you can inadvertently end up back stepping/flipping. For example, barn dooring, or slipping on a layback, will cause you to rotate and face your back to the wall, and you will flip.

rockfall is not a hazard in a gym, especially for tr or bouldering, which is what i personally do almost exclusively if im indoors. Maybe if you’re hanging draws someone could drop them, but most gyms have permadraws now for leaders. Gyms are pretty controlled environments compared to the mountains.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

If leading or belaying i definitely would want to as flipping and hitting the wall is still a hazard. go watch the hardiseasy video i linked for some examples of pro comp climbers flipping, and situations where you can inadvertently end up back stepping/flipping. For example, barn dooring, or slipping on a layback, will cause you to rotate and face your back to the wall, and you will flip.

rockfall is not a hazard in a gym, especially for tr or bouldering, which is what i personally do almost exclusively if im indoors. Maybe if you’re hanging draws someone could drop them, but most gyms have permadraws now for leaders. Gyms are pretty controlled environments compared to the mountains.

Now we’re getting somewhere! So, you wear a helmet when you perceive there to be a certain level of hazard as unacceptable to you.

How do you compare the “Free Solo” of Honnold sans helmet vs the Huber solo with helmet? Was Honnold out of line? Or it didn’t matter because falling means death?  

Wearing a helmet is better than not wearing a helmet.  Its pretty simple.  You can choose not too if you wish, that's also pretty simple.  

I was a firefighter paramedic working in Hollywood back when California had just passed or was going to pass the mandatory motorcycle helmet law.   One shift we went on a solo motorcycle accident on Sunset Blvd.  The guys wasn't wearing a helmet and ended up with a skull fracture and some pretty bad road rash but was pretty lucky he didn't get run over in the process.  As we were taking him to the ER he was laughing and said "you will never guess where I was heading".  I asked where and he said he was headlining a gig to raise money to fight against the new helmet law.  He also said how stupid he felt and that he never thought anything like that could happen to him.   

I don't care if someone wears a helmet at the crag or not but to try and say it makes no difference is pretty absurd.

Tradibanwrote:

Now we’re getting somewhere! So, you wear a helmet when you perceive there to be a certain level of hazard as unacceptable to you.

How do you compare the “Free Solo” of Honnold sans helmet vs the Huber solo with helmet? Was Honnold out of line? Or it didn’t matter because falling means death?  

Dude! I tried to be charitable, i tried to give you an out, but this is just one too many for me:

1. Considers it a “rub” that there is inherent rockfall risk
2. Surprised by the idea of wearing a helmet at the base of a crag
3. Can’t distinguish between the indoors and outdoors
4. Mentions “Free Solo” and Alec handhold
5. Asks a question about soloing on a public forum

I diagnose you as a gumby, an unjustifiably argumentative one at that, who is in serious need of some humility, and well structured climbing instruction.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

rockfall is not a hazard in a gym, especially for tr or bouldering, which is what i personally do almost exclusively if im indoors. Maybe if you’re hanging draws someone could drop them, but most gyms have permadraws now for leaders. Gyms are pretty controlled environments compared to the mountains.

Not that I'm advocating for helmets in the gym, but I've very nearly been hit in the face by another party's dropped phablet while belaying in the gym. 

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Wearing a helmet is better than not wearing a helmet.  Its pretty simple.  You can choose not too if you wish, that's also pretty simple.  

I was a firefighter paramedic working in Hollywood back when California had just passed or was going to pass the mandatory motorcycle helmet law.   One shift we went on a solo motorcycle accident on Sunset Blvd.  The guys wasn't wearing a helmet and ended up with a skull fracture and some pretty bad road rash but was pretty lucky he didn't get run over in the process.  As we were taking him to the ER he was laughing and said "you will never guess where I was heading".  I asked where and he said he was headlining a gig to raise money to fight against the new helmet law.  He also said how stupid he felt and that he never thought anything like that could happen to him.   

I don't care if someone wears a helmet at the crag or not but to try and say it makes no difference is pretty absurd.

Well said, Kevin!  Btw was he Gary Busey?

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Dude! I tried to be charitable, i tried to give you an out, but this is just one too many for me:

1. Considers it a “rub” that there is inherent rockfall risk
2. Surprised by the idea of wearing a helmet at the base of a crag
3. Can’t distinguish between the indoors and outdoors
4. Mentions “Free Solo” and Alec handhold
5. Asks a question about soloing on a public forum

I diagnose you as a gumby, an unjustifiably argumentative one at that, who is in serious need of some humility, and well structured climbing instruction.

Avoiding the question because you don’t know who Huber is?

How about this one, what other tools or practices do you employ to stay “safe” climbing?