I don’t like the hands free on GriGri, change my mind

Want to get public opinion here, on going hands free with a GriGri.

For context, I took the photo below while I was guiding at a local Crag in MN (Taylor’s, MN Strip), and I saw a guy belaying a bunch of kids, and he kept going hands off. In the photo below, there is a kid on the rock about 45 ft up that you don’t see in photo.

I personally don’t like it, think it sets the wrong idea for people watching, and could lead to issues.

More or less want to take a pulse on thoughts about hands free with this device without tossing in a stopper or anything. (And no the guy above did not have a stopper or backup in place, he just kept letting go of the rope)

Here we go...

In case this isn't a troll

Hand to REI, this is not a troll.

I actually do want public opinion this time, because I wasn’t sure what to think in that situation. Being that there were kids on the other end of that line made me a little irritated 

I also don't like hands free grigri. 99.9% chance it won't fail - but its just bad practice. If you need to go hands free tie off a knot on the brake strand. 

You have 2 choices. Only one will have any chance of affecting any change.  You say something, or you can let natural selection take its course.  Guess we know which one you chose.

I’d like to add on some public polls that I’ve been thinking about: 

Drinking and driving. When is it ok?

Is it acceptable to trundle rocks on people if they’re my friends?

Why come the number for rock and resole?

Say something in the moment, what do you hope to accomplish by posting this here? The fact that you purport yourself as a guide but need random strangers on the internet's opinion on what to think about this is troubling. 

Kip Kasperwrote:

As linked above, petzl explicitly states that the grigri is not a hands free device.

The grigri gets used for a bunch of things that Petzl doesn’t recommend. Last time I was on land, I lead soloed with mine. I think following the manufacturer recommendations or not, understanding failure modes is key. How does it react when you…. ???

For reference, you basically can’t go to Taylor’s Falls and not witness a disaster shitshow. Whether it’s sketchy schizophrenic spiderweb looking anchors or people who can’t tie a figure eight somehow there’s always something. Once spoke to a guy at the base who had a brand new shiny #5 on his harness claiming he was bringing it “just in case”, despite there being nothing larger than a 1 on the route. 

Gri Gri isn’t a hands free device, nor is it advertised as one. Every single one of these gri gri threads people are complaining that it doesn’t do stuff it’s not rated nor designed to do. Use the device per petzl’s guidelines. Simple as that and doesn’t really require all this discussion. 

Only when rapping or LRSing

Cause then it's my own life

DrRockso RRGwrote:

Say something in the moment, what do you hope to accomplish by posting this here? The fact that you proport yourself as a guide but need random strangers on the internet's opinion on what to think about this is troubling. 

Troubling to ask opinion?

So by your logic, a Dr. consulting another physician's opinion is alarming. Or getting beta when you should know how to climb is alarming? Or law Enforcement learning at shooting range from instructor is alarming?

I'm asking because we all know what Petzl says for use, easy enough to find online today. But people also use stuff against recommendations that have become standard too. I gave my two cents on how I felt about it (even says in the title), but wanted to take a pulse since I've never really discussed it, and after seeing it figured I'd ask. 

But your right, next time I'll just walk around the gym and ask people I know, God forbid I ask the community here, opps sorry, "random strangers". 

Personally I act like it’s an ATC- control the brake strand at all times, treat the assisted brake function as a backup. 

Hands free is the basis of my whole top rope soloing system...   

Bad practice is the primary concern if the rope is weighted, because something would have to happen for the device to fail, kinda like going into a single bolt and going off belay. Yeah its safe ish, but if something happens for some reason, you don’t have backup, still risk is like 1/1000 or less so in reality it is safe enough although should be avoided. If unweighted, probably a 99% chance it will be fine but 1/100 ain’t good enough odds for me. If someone is hang dogging, tie a backup knot before going hands free. These numbers are obviously gross estimates but I think they are pretty close to reality. 

There's a huge difference between using the grigri off label for self belaying (at your own risk and understanding the risk, and something I've done plenty of times) and belaying kids an improper way when there's no good reason to do it (something I'd never do). The guy going hands off belaying kids is risking their safety.

I've fallen self belayed on a gri gri and had 10-15 feet of rope slip before it caught. If the rope is smaller diameter / newer it's more likely to slip. If the fall is gradual or without enough weight to jerk the cam and engage it, it's more likely to slip. 

45 feet up and with the recommended rope diameter it's very likely it would catch before a ground fall. But a kid could fall enough to hit a ledge and break an ankle. And the guy was probably going hands off near the ground.

I'd likely say to the guy when no one else can hear "I've taken some falls on self belay with a grigri and had 10 feet of rope zip through before it caught. So I'd suggest keeping your brake hand on the rope to make sure the cam engages quickly in a fall"

the guy in the pic looks more like an inattentive belayer than anything else.   

There is this thing called a catastrophe knot for those infrequent instances where you need to go hands free with a gri gri.

Kephas Petroswrote:

Troubling to ask opinion?

So by your logic, a Dr. consulting another physician's opinion is alarming. Or getting beta when you should know how to climb is alarming? Or law Enforcement learning at shooting range from instructor is alarming?

I'm asking because we all know what Petzl says for use, easy enough to find online today. But people also use stuff against recommendations that have become standard too. I gave my two cents on how I felt about it (even says in the title), but wanted to take a pulse since I've never really discussed it, and after seeing it figured I'd ask. 

But your right, next time I'll just walk around the gym and ask people I know, God forbid I ask the community here, opps sorry, "random strangers". 

If you knew in the moment (as you seem to have) that using a GriGri hands free whilst another climber is on the end of the rope is a big no-no, then you're doing precisely as Dr. R says you are.  You could have said something in the moment.  If you were so concerned about it that you had to come to a forum and ask if you should have said something, that means you should have.  Unless you're arguing that there are climbers out there that don't know that going hands free on any device, should prompt a stopper knot below the device, then what are you asking here?  

"Should I have said something?"

"Do you all think this was unsafe?"

We're answering yes, obviously (you know, because both of the answers are obvious, which you knew, otherwise, why take the picture in the first place?) and you communicate as if you already knew the answer was yes.  Engaging in fallacious arguments like the false equivalency highlighted above and getting an attitude when the obvious is pointed out ot you, is earning you the derision you're receiving.  

I wonder if there's a correlation between your inability to grasp these things on your own, and your inability to spell 4 letter words in (ostensibly) your native language.  I'm going with yes.

A true 'guide' would never ask such a silly question.

The guy was obviously an idiot, but, as other comments said, you should have let him know in person (especially since there was a child on the other end of the rope).

Another thread, really guys?