Deciding whether or not to share routes on Mountain Project. Gatekeeping?

Dan Booklesswrote:

Agreed!  You dont owe anyone anything. 

however, if I stumble upon your "private" crag on public land, I will 100 percent spray about it with utter disregard (because I don't owe you anything)

Why? Is it actually any better with the added traffic, or do you just get your secondhand dopamine kick from being the guy to dispense the info? 

PWZwrote:

Why? Is it actually any better with the added traffic, or do you just get your secondhand dopamine kick from being the guy to dispense the info? 

If it's a worthy crag with good climbs without access issue SHARE IT! being selfish is lame

The trope that climbing is getting too popular and crags are too crowded is overstated (not to mention that sharing more info about more crags is only going to spread out the crowds not increase them)

Dan Booklesswrote:

Agreed!  You dont owe anyone anything. 

however, if I stumble upon your "private" crag on public land, I will 100 percent spray about it with utter disregard (because I don't owe you anything)

There is a whole host of very valid reasons why that might be a terrible idea. I think in general it makes sense to have routes and areas on public land be public knowledge, but there are lot of reasons why it makes sense to keep them hush hush either temporarily or permanently. 

PWZwrote:

Why? Is it actually any better with the added traffic, or do you just get your secondhand dopamine kick from being the guy to dispense the info? 

It's certainly better for the people who get to go there because they weren't excluded. Perhaps the person you're responding to isn't only thinking of their own experience.

Everybody is traffic. YOU'RE TRAFFIC. If you really think an area is better without traffic, then stop being a hypocrite and stop climbing there.

Pretending you have some sort of moral high ground here is absurd.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

There is a whole host of very valid reasons why that might be a terrible idea. I think in general it makes sense to have routes and areas on public land be public knowledge, but there are lot of reasons why it makes sense to keep them hush hush either temporarily or permanently. 

I've been over some of those reasons in previous posts, and I've seen some not mentioned in this discussion, and I remain unpersuaded. Almost every legitimate concern people try to address by keeping secrets is better addressed by working with stakeholders to implement a real area management plan.

A few years back, I put in a bolt and didn’t tell anyone about it. It is in an area I frequently scramble but occasionally bring a partner who wants roped protection.

Pretty happy with it as traffic in the area remains about as it has in years past.

Dan Booklesswrote:

Agreed!  You dont owe anyone anything. 

however, if I stumble upon your "private" crag on public land, I will 100 percent spray about it with utter disregard (because I don't owe you anything)

I mean, you could (being a descent human) ask around about it before spraying it all over here. You didn't put any work into what you just found and climbed. You just want to spray it to the masses and get MP clout (assumingly). All that being said you really don't owe anyone anything. But gratitude about someone's else's hard work and time and money does go along way these days, although we as a race are declining in basic human decency. 

Agreed!  You dont owe anyone anything. 

however, if I stumble upon your "private" crag on public land, I will 100 percent spray about it with utter disregard (because I don't owe you anything)

Yes the world owes you routes so you can spray about them. 

Tyler Phillipswrote:

I mean, you could (being a descent human) ask around about it before spraying it all over here. You didn't put any work into what you just found and climbed. You just want to spray it to the masses and get MP clout (assumingly). All that being said you really don't owe anyone anything. But gratitude about someone's else's hard work and time and money does go along way these days, although we as a race are declining in basic human decency. 

Ethically right or wrong, I don’t know or care but for routes on public land a person has the right to post them. 

Nick Rwrote:

Ethically right or wrong, I don’t know or care but for routes on public land a person has the right to post them. 

My point proven

Tyler Phillipswrote:

I mean, you could (being a descent human) ask around about it before spraying it all over here.

If you want credit for your work then you're going to have to tell people you did it. You seriously expect the very people you're keeping secrets from, to suddenly start helping you keep the secret if they discover it? Nah.

You didn't put any work into what you just found and climbed.

So what?

Again, bolting a route doesn't entitle you to unlimited ownership of a private playground.

You just want to spray it to the masses and get MP clout (assumingly).

FFS. Nobody gives a shit about "MP clout", this is a stupid assumption. I share routes because I care about other people who might want to climb the route. Why is caring about other people so inconceivable to you?

All that being said you really don't owe anyone anything. But gratitude about someone's else's hard work and time and money does go along way these days, although we as a race are declining in basic human decency. 

Gratitude? If they decline to share it for others to climb, then it's abundantly clear that they bolted it for themselves. It's fine to do things for yourself, but why should I be grateful for something you did for yourself?

If people decide to bolt for the community (i.e. share about the routes they bolt), I'm happy to show my gratitude by donating time and money to further develop and maintain areas.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Yes the world owes you routes so you can spray about them. 

Nah, nobody owes anybody anything. Nobody owes anybody routes and nobody owes anybody secrecy.

The ego here is hilarious. Nobody is asking you to bolt. If you don't want to bolt, don't bolt. You're not such an extravagant gift to humanity that anyone is going to mourn the loss. If anything, most people bolting should not be bolting.

Older climbers have to accept that new ways of sharing information are here. Younger climbers must accept our reluctance to participate. 

Is it bolted? Who owns the hardware?

Dan Wwrote:

Is it bolted? Who owns the hardware?

Well, once you abandon it in the rock, it’s the land owner. 

philip bonewrote:

Older climbers have to accept that new ways of sharing information are here. Younger climbers must accept our reluctance to participate. 

If any climbers are demanding that any climbers participate, I haven't seen it. If you choose not to participate, that's your right. All I'm saying is that if you choose not to participate, you don't get the benefits of participation. You can't reasonably expect people to come and find you to get your opinions on an area you develop--it's up to you to make your voice heard if you want it heard.

Only the gatekeeping climbers are claiming anyone owes them anything. Apparently we owe you the courtesy of going and finding you to get your opinions, we owe you secrecy, and we owe you gratitude that you bolted a private playground for yourself.

David Kwrote:

If any climbers are demanding that any climbers participate, I haven't seen it. If you choose not to participate, that's your right. All I'm saying is that if you choose not to participate, you don't get the benefits of participation. You can't reasonably expect people to come and find you to get your opinions on an area you develop--it's up to you to make your voice heard if you want it heard.

Only the gatekeeping climbers are claiming anyone owes them anything. Apparently we owe you the courtesy of going and finding you to get your opinions, we owe you secrecy, and we owe you gratitude that you bolted a private playground for yourself.

i believe that what is "owed" is called common courtesy , not hard in most places I have lived.

David Kwrote:

I've been over some of those reasons in previous posts, and I've seen some not mentioned in this discussion, and I remain unpersuaded. Almost every legitimate concern people try to address by keeping secrets is better addressed by working with stakeholders to implement a real area management plan.

What about an area undergoing significant active development and the developers want the area cleaned up more and for better trails put in place before made public? This is a very common situation. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

What about an area undergoing significant active development and the developers want the area cleaned up more and for better trails put in place before made public? This is a very common situation. 

As I said, "Almost every legitimate concern people try to address by keeping secrets is better addressed by working with stakeholders to implement a real area management plan."

In this case, the legitimate concern is that the area won't be able to handle traffic until it's cleaned up more and better trails are put in place. That's a legitimate concern, and it's best addressed by publicly explaining what needs to be done and requesting that people not go there unless they're part of the work efforts. This has a bunch of benefits over secrecy:

1. You can solicit volunteers: people interested in climbing there will often be happy to help with the needed work, which results in it getting done faster.
2. You can solicit donations: people will often donate hardware or money if they find out about a project, which results in the work getting done faster and cheaper.
3. People like myself who might explore or even develop the area in the absence of information, will know not to.

Hanging Mountain in western MA was in exactly this situation and they were able to do almost a year of pre-work necessary to get the area open without keeping it a secret boys' club. Community-oriented projects work best when you include the community you're trying to serve.

It's worth noting that Mountain Project doesn't have to be the place where information gets spread--other venues might be more effective--the point is that secrecy ISN'T the most effective way to achieve developers' goals.

If you really have good reasons for not wanting to go somewhere, then you have nothing to hide. And conversely, if you feel you have to hide your development efforts, maybe those efforts aren't as good as you're thinking they are.

EDIT: Removed sarcasm.

David Kwrote:

As I said, "Almost every legitimate concern people try to address by keeping secrets is better addressed by working with stakeholders to implement a real area management plan."

In this case, the legitimate concern is that the area won't be able to handle traffic until it's cleaned up more and better trails are put in place. That's a legitimate concern, and it's best addressed by publicly explaining what needs to be done and requesting that people not go there unless they're part of the work efforts. This has a bunch of benefits over secrecy:

1. You can solicit volunteers: people interested in climbing there will often be happy to help with the needed work, which results in it getting done faster.
2. You can solicit donations: people will often donate hardware or money if they find out about a project, which results in the work getting done faster and cheaper.
3. People like myself who might explore or even develop the area in the absence of information, will know not to.

Hanging Mountain in western MA was in exactly this situation and they were able to do almost a year of pre-work necessary to get the area open without keeping it a secret boys' club. Community-oriented projects work best when you include the community you're trying to serve.

It's worth noting that Mountain Project doesn't have to be the place where information gets spread--other venues might be more effective--the point is that secrecy ISN'T the most effective way to achieve developers' goals.

If you really have good reasons for not wanting to go somewhere, then you have nothing to hide. And conversely, if you feel you have to hide your development efforts, maybe those efforts aren't as good as you're thinking they are.

EDIT: Removed sarcasm.

I'm having a hard time understanding the service you're doing by publishing an area and then telling people to not go. Why not just wait until it's ready?

Get off the internet

Todd Berlier wrote:

i felt like i was doing my part to end this silly thread, but, alas, i failed.

Thank you for your service. It’s the thought that counts.