"I can't use a grigri" is a massive red flag?

Frank Stein wrote:

This has been a decades long crusade for Healy. 

Oh I know

Frank Stein wrote:

This has been a decades long crusade for Healy. 

A crusade, you say? Should work out great.

Frank Stein wrote:

Healy would burst into flames upon touching the cursed instrument

Oh, I did trad lead rope soloing with modded and unmodded Grigris from 1991 to 2005 when the Edelrid Eddy came out and I ditched the Grigris overnight. But in that period I easily did 5k+ single and multipitch trad leads in the 5.8-.11 range with similar numbers for the Eddy between 2005 and now. So actually, I’m intimately familiar with both devices but just happen to think they both suck for belaying - certainly fabulous hanging devices though.

Healyje wrote:

Oh, I did trad lead rope soloing with modded and unmodded Grigris from 1991 to 2005 when the Edelrid Eddy came out and I ditched the Grigris overnight. But in that period I easily did 5k+ single and multipitch trad leads in the 5.8-.11 range with similar numbers for the Eddy between 2005 and now. So actually, I’m intimately familiar with both devices but just happen to think they both suck for belaying - certainly fabulous hanging devices though.

It sounds like you have enough experience hanging on the devices to know definitively, you are correct!

M M wrote:

It sounds like you have enough experience hanging on the devices to know definitively, you are correct!

I don’t aid climb, all those LRS climbs have been free climbs (with no hanging).

Healyje wrote:

I don’t aid climb, all those LRS climbs have been free climbs (with no hanging).

You sure seem to understand the hangdogging qualities of the gg intimately,  you must hang out at sport crags a lot

M M wrote:

You sure seem to understand the hangdogging qualities of the gg intimately,  you must hang out at sport crags a lot

Nope, dogging was actually the primary point of contention between climbers and sport climbers in the early ‘80s, with bolting coming in a close second - hang, hang, hang, hang, tick, next. Some of us referred to it as ‘aerial bouldering’ at the time and pushed for an ‘AB’ rating suffix to denote a route was put up in that ‘style’.

Healyje wrote:

Nope, dogging was actually the primary point of contention between climbers and sport climbers in the early ‘80s, with bolting coming in a close second - hang, hang, hang, hang, tick, next. Some of us referred to it as ‘aerial bouldering’ at the time and pushed for an ‘AB’ rating suffix to denote a route was put up in that ‘style’.

Agree, the most non-traditional climbing I did was one time at Smith Rocks. The people I climbed with either climb from the ground up or not at all.

It pisses off some of my gym partners when I insist upon going ground up, but either red point or no point.

Healyje wrote:

Nope, dogging was actually the primary point of contention between climbers and sport climbers in the early ‘80s, with bolting coming in a close second - hang, hang, hang, hang, tick, next. Some of us referred to it as ‘aerial bouldering’ at the time and pushed for an ‘AB’ rating suffix to denote a route was put up in that ‘style’.

But the gg wasn't around until the 90s , what's your point here?

Li Hu wrote:

Agree, the most non-traditional climbing I did was one time at Smith Rocks. The people I climbed with either climb from the ground up or not at all.

It pisses off some of my gym partners when I insist upon going ground up, but either red point or no point.

I have no rules at the gym, I'm just there to maintain strength and have fun. Outside I prefer to finish routes so I can move on to the next one, I'll project a route by learning the moves one day and then trying it next time I'm there. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've spent projecting one route over a day,  I guess there just aren't any climbs I care enough about to project? I will project when pebble wrestling though.  No hard rules besides safety.  All the hardest climbs in the world have been dogged hard, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

M M wrote:

But the gg wasn't around until the 90s , what's your point here?

What was the point of your dogging comment?

M M wrote:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You wouldn’t, and it isn’t just the hardest routes, instead it has virtually redefined what climbing ‘is’ for the 85+% of the demographic that would evaporate if bolts disappeared overnight…

Healyje wrote:

You wouldn’t, and it isn’t just the hardest routes, instead it has virtually redefined what climbing ‘is’ for the 85+% of the demographic that would evaporate if bolts disappeared overnight…

While I do support bolting per access fund, I’m a bit more traditional as well.

Climbing has gotten more fun with a wider demographic.

I’ll definitely work problems in a gym, but only if my belayer doesn’t mind.

Healyje wrote:

You wouldn’t, and it isn’t just the hardest routes, instead it has virtually redefined what climbing ‘is’ for the 85+% of the demographic that would evaporate if bolts disappeared overnight…

Well I guess this is where we can mostly agree, I definitely find little fun in pushing the limits on marginal ball nuts and RPs every 20-50' on cutting edge trad routes(that would be awesome  with a couple of bolts) so you can  almost count me in that 85% of the demographic.  The problem for you would be is if those bolts were gone folks like me would be all over your local trad crag with grigris in force shouting "you got it bro".

M M wrote:

You sure seem to understand the hangdogging qualities of the gg intimately,  you must hang out at sport crags a lot

Or belay people whom do. As the climber, I’m not sure you personally experience it?

M M wrote:

85% of the demographic.  The problem for you would be is if those bolts were gone folks like me would be all over your local trad crag with grigris in force shouting "you got it bro".

Hahaha, so true. 

M M wrote:

The problem for you would be is if those bolts were gone folks like me would be all over your local trad crag with grigris in force shouting "you got it bro".

Actually not. Having been a climber before gyms and sport climbing I know exactly how most folks reacted to climbing pre-bolts. Most didn’t come out a second time, many more didn’t last a month, and very few made it a year. And in the ‘70s, when all there was was trad climbing, about 20% of climbers were naturals and gifted with pro, another 30-40% were comfortable and competent, the rest though were always a bit nervous and twitchy - most of them became sport climbers virtually overnight once it took off. So yeah, if bolts evaporated overnight then that 85%+ that now identify as climbers likely wouldn’t the next day.

Healyje wrote:

Actually not. Having been a climber before gyms and sport climbing I know exactly how most folks reacted to climbing pre-bolts. Most didn’t come out a second time, many more didn’t last a month, and very few made it a year. And in the ‘70s, when all there was was trad climbing, about 20% of climbers were naturals and gifted with pro, another 30-40% were comfortable and competent, the rest though were always a bit nervous and twitchy - most of them became sport climbers virtually overnight once it took off. So yeah, if bolts evaporated overnight then that 85%+ that now identify as climbers likely wouldn’t the next day.

I think you underestimate the power of gyms and climbers being more versatile than they were BITD, I'd guess 90% of climbers at traditional crags like the Gunks, Indian Creek and even Yosemite go to gyms regularly and sport climb as well. You should branch out a little,  you might learn a ton about the modern scene, grigris and all.

Healyje wrote:

And in the ‘70s, when all there was was trad climbing, about 20% of climbers were naturals and gifted with pro, another 30-40% were comfortable and competent, the rest though were always a bit nervous and twitchy - most of them became sport climbers virtually overnight once it took off.

I was not climbing in the 70s other than 3rd and 4th class scrambling. I started trad climbing in 2003. Not long after, I was a leader in a club and eventually climbing chair for a year.

In the last 20 years, I have seen the club’s climb school curriculum morph from multi-pitch-trad centric to single-pitch-sport centric. The trad climbing percentages Healyje mentions seem to still be appropriate 30 years later when I was involved in that club.

People don’t change much. Bolts and ABDs are strong enablers. Though the trad climbers these days often frequent the gym, but not all.

Bill Lawry wrote:

I was not climbing in the 70s other than 3rd and 4th class scrambling. I started trad climbing in 2003. Not long after, I was a leader in a club and eventually climbing chair for a year.

In the last 20 years, I have seen the club’s climb school curriculum morph from multi-pitch-trad centric to single-pitch-sport centric. The trad climbing percentages Healyje mentions seem to still be appropriate 30 years later when I was involved in that club.

People don’t change much. Bolts and ABDs are strong enablers. Though the trad climbers these days often frequent the gym, but not all.

Makes sense, though I’ve not seen any actual data, it certainly feels this way.

Gyms and sport crags are full, trad crags? Not so much.

Outdoor boulders seem to be more heavily populated with king sized mattress pads to simulate gym mats. My home gym even rents these oversized pads.

Adding that last night, the GriGri allowed me to easily pull in rope slack after my partner dropped the second clip and another foot when he yelled falling. He did end up on the ground, but hoisted me up a foot catching a nearly factor 2 fall and landing reasonably softly with only a small rope burn.

Honestly, I don’t think I could have reeled in 7 feet of rope like that with an ATC. Sport and gym climbing ABDs are very helpful, and I can personally vouch for them now.