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What even is Wilderness Climbing?
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On one level it doesn't matter under tge proosed regulations. If even one sling is left as a rap anchor to descend from the peak in the second picture, it would be considered to be a forbidden installation. |
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I see your point Alan. It doesn't seem likely that the sport crag is ever going to be (nor should it be) allowed in wilderness. I'd hate to lose access to B because land managers think its A. |
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Except that “A” is not in Wilderness. BLM Wilderness Study Areas are not the same thing. |
Frank Steinwrote: Prime example of misinformed climbers. The majority of climbing in Red Rock is in designated wilderness, including sunny and steep. Almost all of the canyons are also wilderness, excluding Brass Wall. To clarify - wilderness study areas are proposed for wilderness designation. Wilderness study area = future wilderness designation and the management agency doesnt matter. |
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Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but all of Yosemite’s big walls are designated wilderness. |
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This question is exceedingly easy to answer with only the most de minimus of internet research. Interestingly Red Rock appears to be excluded, as it's a National Conservation Area (NCA) administered by BLM, not a Wilderness Area (although some Wilderness Areas are administered by BLM). It's an alphabet soup of designations - for example all Wilderness Areas are also NCAs, but not vice versa. |
Math Bertwrote: Wow. Yeah, no. The wilderness areas within Red Rock NCA will be subjected to the same wilderness regulations as all others, no matter the agency. And yes, a lot of Red Rock is designated wilderness. And no, not all wilderness areas are NCAs. It really seems that the majority of climbers don't actually know what a wilderness designation is. |
Derek Bwrote: You could name it instead of continually inflating yourself through sarcasm and snark. You appear to have created this account solely to stir shit around this issue. There's two designated wilderness areas that cover parts of Red Rock NCA: La Madre Mountains Wilderness to the north and Rainbow Mountain Wilderness to the south. They do, in fact, cover almost all the climbing of interest at red rock. You could be forgiven for not knowing, as they were designated in 2002 and don't show up on FS topos. I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about what happens, or should happen, in this case vs places like Mt. Lemmon (Pusch Ridge, 1978), but I'm not sure MP is really the place for it, especially with the kind of discourse these threads seem to attract. |
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One of the major issues I see with this new set of prohibition laws is that wilderness designations are wildly inconsistent. Yes, Prusik peak is in a wilderness area and it would be heinous for sport climbing to exist there (There is literally a bolt on the west ridge route. Consider it Illegal / chopped. Hope you can free a 5.7/8 wide section at the top above a ledge or risk breaking your ankles 10 miles deep in the backcountry). The prohibition of all fixed anchors is also going to end climbing long routes in wilderness areas, period. It's not just bolts y'all, its fucking tat, pitons, bashies, rivets, all of it. Everything that you would use to bail off a route would become illegal. Better send or die! You might see a fine if not you dirtbag fuck. Because how dare you recreate in public lands. |
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For remote wilderness climbing - we are talking all day or multi day approaches- I think climbers will be largely unaffected by any new rules. Have folks considered what would actually happen to you if you left some slings or nuts or pins retreating from some remote wilderness peak? Nothing, that's what. You need to get down, so you leave some gear. In 5 or 10 years, another climber will come across your gear and booty it and hopefully take down the sun bleached slings. Are there folks out there that would choose to freeze to death halfway up a peak, because they are afraid to break the wilderness laws? I don't think so. I suppose the government could station thousands of drones around the base of wilderness peaks to monitor the climbers while they ascend... But the drones themselves would violate the wilderness rules, no? |
Tyler Stockdalewrote: Wilderness designations are NOT wildly inconsistent. The issue is that the areas designated as wilderness vary wildly in terms of their accessibility. Some are "remote" and require effort. Some are next to major metropolitan cities. More over the real issue it that under the current land management system, it is wilderness or multiple use. Therein lies the issue, there is no middle ground where impactful activities such as extractive industries are prohibited yet less impactful actives, bolt intensive climbing are allowed. |
Derek Bwrote: You did your best Donnie, but it appears you're out of your element here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Conservation_Lands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Conservation_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wilderness_areas_of_the_United_States |
Allen Sandersonwrote: So, literally what I just said. Wilderness designations are wildly inconsistent *in regards to their accessibility*. Thanks Allen. It’s like you read one sentence and just HAD to correct me without any sort of comprehension of my greater point, the exact same point you just wrote. |
Spopepro O.wrote: You're right. No need for snark. It is perplexing and embarrassing that we're being rallied as a user group to oppose wilderness regulations that most of us don't even understand. Perhaps it would be good for the community to do some research about wilderness and the implications for climbing. Or maybe not...see below
Matthew, you get props for at least trying to understand the convoluted alphabet soup. Unfortunately, you still aren't right. This was taken from a link you provided  Wilderness is a completely independent designation for federal lands. Federal Wilderness areas are on land managed by either NPS, Forest Service, USFWS, or BLM. Those agencies manage a smattering of land designations including National Parks, National Monuments, National Conservation Areas, National Recreation Areas, National Forests, plain ole BLM land, etc. Wilderness areas can be located within all of those separate designations. What makes it most confusing is that sometimes one Wilderness area extends between adjacent federals lands of different designations. In Red Rock, The La Madre Mountains and Rainbow Mountain Wilderness areas are a part of the Red Rock Canyon NCA managed by the BLM, but ALSO are a part of the Spring Mountains National Recreation area managed by the Forest Service. What a mess. Since climbing in Wilderness is under scrutiny right now, we as climbers best know what the hell we're talking about when we're opposing these proposals. Its obvious that the NPS and USFS have grouped sport climbing crags with remote wilderness routes that have a couple slings for rappels. We all know climbing is more varied than that, so maybe we should be able to explain which types of climbing ARE compatible with wilderness ethics and which forms of climbing are not. Those are the comments that are most valuable to the NPS and USFS is they reinterpret wilderness climbing for us all. |
Tyler Stockdalewrote: I corrected your first point, Congress designates wilderness, those designations do not wildly vary. Then clarified the rest of your long winded post more succinctly so that people would more easily under part of the underlying issue. Which is fairly complex and one I and others have been dealing with since the late 1980s. |
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La Madre Mountains Wilderness was designated in 2002. All the routes at Sunny and Steep were done in 1994, well before the wilderness designation. The routes there are ALL grandfathered in since the BLM has never pressed any issue with those bolts. |
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Wilderness is just a line on a map. here in VT we have wilderness areas that start 100ft from a paved road. that problem always is climbers who think their style of climbing is better than other climbers style so they propose rules or agree with rules that at the end of the day affect all of us. Just like When climbers bitch about the 4X4 off roaders trashing the desert so they lobby for rules that eventually make it a crime for them to drive their Prius or even ride their bicycle to the crag. bottom line is that people are stupid and we always destroy ourselves in the end. The climber who relishes the idea of the cable route being eliminated from half dome to get rid of all those n00b tourists seems clueless of the fact that the same rules that would eliminate the cable route will also eliminate the Snake dike and the RNWF of half dome as well as every single other climbing route on half dome and most of the routes in the park. . |
tom donnellywrote: Here is the Congressional designation. If you read through it there is no mention of climbing (or even hiking for that matter). As such, while climbing and fixed anchors predate the designation, the fact that the BLM nor any Federal land management agency has pressed the issue that does not mean the fixed anchors are grandfathered. It is however, an argument that the climbing anchors did not impact the designation. When the Wilderness Act was put into place people could get a wilderness permit and bike into a designation wilderness area. A friend once had such a permit and it was part of the 1981 Forest Service manual. As such, bicycles were allowed in designation wilderness areas until 1984 when the agencies made a collective interpretation of the Wilderness Act that bicycles were mechanized and thus prohibited. As such, for the past 40 years bicycles have been prohibited. However, to my knowledge only one wilderness designation specifically mentioned bicycles (I cannot remember which one and how they are managed). A link to a good read on this issue. I bring up bicycles because, at one point they had a formal acknowledgment in the Forest Service manual and managed. But now are prohibited. For nearly decade, bicycle community has tried to get Congress to change the law. Unlike bicycles fixed anchors have not any overall management guidance with the exception of the NPS Director's Order 41 issued in 2013. Which is a broad and general acknowledgement and with some guidance. There have many regional climbing management plans. My point with all the above is, unless specifically noted in the designation nothing is grandfathered, the interpretation is subject to change unless codified by law. |
Wiled Horse wrote: Hand drills are not a method of transportation so there is that. |
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I just want to chime in with a reminder. MP folks love debating nuance, but let's not forget to do the following: |
