"I can't use a grigri" is a massive red flag?

Li Huwrote:

Have you lead belayed a climber with the GriGri before?

Many many times. To clarify I understand you can use your thumb to defeat the cam in order to pay out slack, this is what I generally do.

 What I don’t understand is how that leads to dropping your climber-you should still be controlling the brake strand, and if your climber falls you brake. Doesn’t matter if the cam didn’t engage because you are also braking. 

nowherewrote:

Many many times. To clarify I understand you can use your thumb to defeat the cam in order to pay out slack, this is what I generally do.

 What I don’t understand is how that leads to dropping your climber-you should still be controlling the brake strand, and if your climber falls you brake. Doesn’t matter if the cam didn’t engage because you are also braking. 

No, what you are describing is impossible! Somehow.

Yeah, I don’t understand either. It’s like this thread is a bizarro world where the physics of correctly using a grigri explode and gumbies gallop along happily on the backs of their playfully frisky tube devices.

The way I see climbers dropped with a grigri is that they are holding the brake and trip and pull on the brake to try to right themselves and down comes the climber.  Completely user error but not a failure mode for an ATC since you never touch the belay device you must continue to pull on the rope.

nowherewrote:

What I don’t understand is how that leads to dropping your climber-you should still be controlling the brake strand, and if your climber falls you brake. Doesn’t matter if the cam didn’t engage because you are also braking. 

Some people clench up when surprised. When they do their thumb on the cam is likely stronger than their grip on three fingers.

In my case, I’m pretty relaxed, which is arguably bad for ATC, but I’ve caught my fair share of falls, mainly at the gym.

nowherewrote:

 What I don’t understand is how that leads to dropping your climber-you should still be controlling the brake strand, and if your climber falls you brake. Doesn’t matter if the cam didn’t engage because you are also braking. 

Here's something I once saw; it was so stereotypical that it was almost cartoonish--

Young guy is out with his pretty young girlfriend. She clearly has no climbing experience, and he hands her a Grigri and gives some instructions I couldn't hear. The entire time he's climbing, and it wasn't an easy climb for him, though he didn't fall, she has no hand on the brake strand and is clenching the Grigri, feeding slack smoothly but unaware of the danger he's in, or the danger he put himself in.

Totally user error and not at all Petzl's fault, but I've seen this type of belaying many times. That's not to say a Grigri isn't safe-- I have one and use it often-- but I do think the Grigri is more prone to user error in the hands of novices. Again, that's not Petzl's fault. It is, however, a reality. And it's why when I teach people to belay, I use an ATC to drive home the importance of holding the brake strand. After they're competent with the ATC, I'm happy to introduce other devices.

To top it all off, the guy clipped one chain with a non-locking draw and lowered. Then the GF got on TR. I was happy to see her call for a lower before getting halfway up.

Li Huwrote:

Some people clench up when surprised. When they do their thumb on the cam is likely stronger than their grip on three fingers.

Empirical observation suggests this is not the case. I carefully word this because I do not have first-hand experience about this nor do I wish to experiment.

Nevertheless, when you defeat the cam, the Grigri does not become a tube device. It will still catch if there is some weight on the brake strand because the cam will engage with more force than your thumb can apply. This is explicitly why Petzl requires you to have three fingers wrapped around the brake strand when paying out slack quickly.

At what point the force overriding the cam becomes too great for the cam to engage is unknown to me.

The situation you describe happens when you grasp the entire device with the other hand, and do not hold the brake strand at all.

J Lwrote:

Empirical observation suggests this is not the case. I carefully word this because I do not have first-hand experience about this nor do I wish to experiment.

Nevertheless, when you defeat the cam, the Grigri does not become a tube device. It will still catch if there is some weight on the brake strand because the cam will engage with more force than your thumb can apply. This is explicitly why Petzl requires you to have three fingers wrapped around the brake strand when paying out slack quickly.

At what point the force overriding the cam becomes too great for the cam to engage is unknown to me.

The situation you describe happens when you grasp the entire device with the other hand, and do not hold the brake strand at all.

It's well known that a brand new small diameter rope will let rope go flying out before  it engages, especially new dry treated ones. 

I watch people and pay attention to myself and I have to say most  folks do not have  anything close to a tight 3 finger grip when "fast"feeding , falls during  a fast feed are sketchy and luckily  uncommon .

but I do think the Grigri is more prone to user error in the hands of novices. Again, that's not Petzl's fault.

I don't understand this logic, at all. They designed and built it, developed user instructions and best practices, sold it, went through several iterations, updated user instructions and best practices to refine how to hold and use the device (rather than changing the device), etc,. How can "more prone to user error" not be Petzl's fault?

The technique to fast feed the device is fucking stupid, sub-optimal.

M Mwrote:

It's well known that a brand new small diameter rope will let rope go flying out before  it engages, especially new dry treated ones. 

I watch people and pay attention to myself and I have to say most  folks do not have  anything close to a tight 3 finger grip when "fast"feeding , falls during  a fast feed are sketchy and luckily  uncommon .

Right, I even use a Sterling VR 9.8 dry rope, and it also runs through unless I actively engage the brake. Any resistance, such as my thumb on the cam, will let that rope slip through.

My partner’s Mammut 9.6 feels like an old 11mm rope and locks the cam too easily.

Julian, three fingers gripping a thin rope like that won’t generate much braking unless the cam engages the rope.

In the end, it comes down to what percentage of the total demographic that puts on a harness and a grigri do you think can competently and reliably (i.e. is never going to drop anyone) belay with one. Factoring in competency, social distraction, awareness, and attention span I’d be absolutely amazed if that number ever crossed 50% and that might be generous.

Healyjewrote:

In the end, it comes down to what percentage of the total demographic that puts on a harness and a grigri do you think can competently and reliably (i.e. is never going to drop anyone) belay with one. Factoring in competency, social distraction, awareness, and attention span I’d be absolutely amazed if that number ever crossed 50% and that might be generous.

At The Post gym today there was only one person belaying on lead and TR with a GriGri, me.  
 

Some gyms prefer ATC, but allow GriGri if you prove competency.

My partner flailed on a crimpy 5.12c, and he asked if I was okay belaying him for over 25 minutes holding him there. I said no problems, as the GriGri did 95% of the work holding him with my Sterling dry VR 9.8 rope. Hoisting him up after falling was also relatively easy.

I’m definitely a believer in gym climbing with a GriGri, but still feel an ATC is better for Trad/Alpine climbing. Especially, ice with twin rope setups, obv

Li Huwrote:

…I said no problems, as the GriGri did 95% of the work holding him with my Sterling dry VR 9.8 rope…

It is without a doubt the definitive hanging device.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

I don't understand this logic, at all. They designed and built it, developed user instructions and best practices, sold it, went through several iterations, updated user instructions and best practices to refine how to hold and use the device (rather than changing the device), etc,. How can "more prone to user error" not be Petzl's fault?

The technique to fast feed the device is fucking stupid, sub-optimal.

I don't disagree. My point, I guess, is that Petzl realizes the flaw and has made instructions, diagrams, and videos about how to deal with it.

And yes, that method sucks. 

So we can fault Petzl for not trying to improve the technology, but we can't claim they didn't warn us. 

Time to bring this gem back, I don't/have never used a gri gri. I now use a gigajul outside and a jul 2 inside (learned on a regular ATC)come at me. 

What i have learned from this thread Is by using the devices i like i don't have to belay others as much, it was a benefit i did not realize when i bought my other devices. 

ian watsonwrote:

Time to bring this gem back, I don't/have never used a gri gri. I now use a gigajul outside and a jul 2 inside (learned on a regular ATC)come at me. 

What i have learned from this thread Is by using the devices i like i don't have to belay others as much, it was a benefit i did not realize when i bought my other devices. 

Hahaha, that’s great!

I bring a guide and a GriGri, and have become a belay slave   

Li Huwrote:

Hahaha, that’s great!

I bring a guide and a GriGri, and have become a belay slave   

Pro tip ditch the GriGri (nothing wrong with it) get a gigajul it does everything of the ATC guide and gri gri (i used it before the gigajul) And climb way more cause no one will trust you to not kill them.

If i had a nickel for everyone i have dropped without using a gri gri I would retire! On the upside for leaders who do risk it when they are sketching at the crux i yell up at them and point at my belay device they never fall and always send after that reminder.

Anyone know where I can get a quality "Red Flag" must be ultralight that i can attach to my non GriGri belay device so i don't have to talk to as many people? I want something that can been seen from far away to really let the whole crag know i am being unsafe and someone will probably die. 

Artem Vee wrote:

Preamble - all of your suggestions that I quote below are good.  I just disagree with the implication that they fully solve the problem.

Keep a smiley face of slack at all times

...except when the leader is near their limit on ledgy / slabby terrain

There is a friction point that locks up the device - feel it out and keep the speed of feeding just below that.

...unless the rope is too fat for this to work.  There is also a range of diameters where this is possible but requires precise motion like playing a musical instrument (and re-learning the speed for each new rope).

Motion is your friend while belaying, a good belayer should be walking into and away from the wall constantly.

...except where you have tripping / falling / cactus / blackberries / sharp snags / etc hazards.  Additionally, walking is useless if the 1st bolt/pro is high (unless the ground is steep, but then you risk losing balance)

If you are anchored into a belay and can't move, you can still predict the leader pulling up a lot of rope to clip and just feed them an extra armful. This will give them all the slack they need to clip and you won't need to manipulate the cam at all.

...except where the leader is sketched out and repeatedly backs off making the clip (not a grigri problem per se, but feeding slowly makes it worse).  Also, with trad it's hard to predict when the leader will decide they're done fiddling and are ready to clip.

Don't camp the cam with your thumb, however, because if your leader falls while you are doing this, they will possibly fall a lot farther than either of you expect, because a couple extra meters can rip through the device due to your thumb camped on the cam. I see people camping the cam with their thumb all the time and feeding out slack this way. Bad/lazy technique. 

I see where you're coming from, but people camp there for a reason - when the leader starts pulling slack, the device gets pulled up, so it's hard to find the cam again if you actually need it.

I've gotten it down to the point where I almost never have to bump the cam

Good for you, but this expectation contributes to the idea that the device is hard to learn.  I've been trying for a couple of years, and I don't see "almost never" as realistic (probably a combination of motor skills / ropes / situations / partners).

Bryans' approach - avoiding the expectation of fast clipping - seems like a better way to sell the idea of always using a grigri.  Alas, not every leader is patient like Bryan, so belayers get stressful experiences with the device and we get threads.

Artem Vee wrote:

It shouldn’t be hard to “find the cam” - it’s really easy. Idk. I’ve never had a problem. Trace up the brake hand until you hit the device. Brace index finger on ridge, bump cam with thumb. Easy.

Agree, it’s all about getting a feel.

The past month I’ve learnt to belay with a GriGri, and don’t even need to look down at the device. I’m watching my climber and the rope, and simply know by feel what’s going on with the device. In that sense, it is easy to use.

Not a hard device to learn. I can teach anybody to use it well - it is about as simple as it gets.

It’s not difficult to learn to use, but using it well requires practice.

I also agree that it’s less likely to short rope when you’ve “got the rhythm” belaying with a GriGri.

Gym/Sport climbing are definitely a different form of climbing. Belaying with soft catches and no short roping are all part of the belay skill set, and  different from placed gear Trad climbing and mountaineering.

Dr Illogical wrote:

I honestly do not understand why people hate the grigri so much. It's really simple to use properly and quite safe when used properly. 

Most of the critical comments about GriGri's in this thread seem to be those who believe it is not the only acceptable belay device...it is simply one of several options, each with their own strengths/weaknesses. There does seem to be a strong contingent that believes that the GriGri is the only acceptable device, which strikes me as either someone who climbs in a very limited way, or is rigidly resistant to any other alternative. That kind of rigid thinking should truly be seen as a 'massive red flag'.

There does seem to be a strong contingent that believes that the GriGri is the only acceptable device, which strikes me as either someone who climbs in a very limited way, or is rigidly resistant to any other alternative. That kind of rigid thinking should truly be seen as a 'massive red flag'.

Exactly my point. The answer to the OP question is an unequivocal YES, its a massive red flag.... to the OP. It's the OP's red flag not the guy who confesses to be a short roper. The OP doesn't want to climb with someone who can't use a grigri properly. It is entirely his prerogative. There is no need for anyone to get defensive about it, including the OP concerns or the bullshit about hating grigris. Grigri or Bust, got it.