"I can't use a grigri" is a massive red flag?

Dr Illogical wrote:

This. 

This is 100% the issue. I have witnessed many people not using the grigri properly during lead belay. When used properly, it's easy to feed rope (literally all your left hand is doing) and it is impossible to block the camming action. The problem with the grigri isn't the grigri, it's always the user. 

Not uncommon.

The thing about calling something user error every time an accident happens without adhering exactly to the operating manual is you are negating fact that the device lends itself to being used that way.  Look at the number of user days vs accidents. Don't try to hedge that number by excluding accidents that you consider user error. 

the car argument is stupid. go away.  The atc argument proves my point. letting go of the brake hand is miss use but it is an inherent risk with that design. count all the accidents with every system . when you see a pattern you have identified a problem . if that problem stems from the device being used imporperly there is  something about the devise that  lends itself to that misuse.   I like the example of the click in snowboard bindings of the late 90s/ early 2000s   I had a ski job and witnessed thousands of people having a terrible time trying to get their boot into that binding.  I mention it to a friend of mine who had a ski shop and sold the binding. he said it was easy to get into the binding if you do it right. In real life a huge portion of the user group was doing it wrong. the binding disappeared a few years later.

How many climbers must be dropped by a belayer yanking the lever back and panicking, before it stops being user error and becomes a design fault?

And please don't offer the GriGri+ as a solution, it seems derided by the majority at my gym because it lowers poorly even in lead mode.

J Lwrote:

And please don't offer the GriGri+ as a solution, it seems derided by the majority at my gym because it lowers poorly even in lead mode.

it lowers just fine once you pull back past the anti-panic function.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

The thing about calling something user error every time an accident happens without adhering exactly to the operating manual is you are negating fact that the device lends itself to being used that way.  Look at the number of user days vs accidents. Don't try to hedge that number by excluding accidents that you consider user error. 

And cars are the number 1 cause of DUIs. The inherent design flaw allows intoxicated humans to operate the vehicle leading to DUI arrests and many many deaths each year. If only they would fix this inherent design flaw by having an ignition interlock breathalyzer then we could prevent all these user error accidents and arrests. 

bryans…. Well said and spot on.

I tell any climber I belay “Don’t expect to do a gunslinger clip at bolts 1,2 or 3 because I want to keep you from hitting the deck… “ 

After that it’s EZ to give em slack 

J Lwrote:

How many climbers must be dropped by a belayer yanking the lever back and panicking, before it stops being user error and becomes a design fault?

And please don't offer the GriGri+ as a solution, it seems derided by the majority at my gym because it lowers poorly even in lead mode.

the answer is clear, we must ban n00bs!

Guy Keeseewrote:

bryans…. Well said and spot on.

I tell any climber I belay “Don’t expect to do a gunslinger clip at bolts 1,2 or 3 because I want to keep you from hitting the deck… “ 

After that it’s EZ to give em slack 

I don’t get the bolt 1 thing. You don’t even have a bolt clipped to save them hitting the deck at that point. They could skin that smoke wagon like an Eastwood outlaw, you can easily have the right slack out. But fair warning.

If you are climbing confidently you can hip clip. Very efficient. No slack necessary.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

the car argument is stupid. go away.  The atc argument proves my point. 

I just really, really enjoy the idea that comparing a device that was on the market for ~3 years and never widely adopted to one that's been on the market for 33 years and has seen wide adoption and spawned numerous iterations/imitations somehow proves your point.

Matthew Bellwrote:

I read this as if you do not hold the brake then you may get around a 2% failure rate (probably just out of thin air) but based on how the grigri works it needs some tension on the brake to activate the cam.

Correct, if no hands are on the device and you aren't actively and competently belaying, then there is no guarantee the device will autoblock every time.

jbak xwrote:

If you are climbing confidently you can hip clip. Very efficient. No slack necessary.

One of the biggest fallacies in climbing

I really don’t understand this  “thumb can defeat the cam” business. Do people not have their hand on the brake strand?  ATC won’t catch a fall that way ever…

the idea that the extra safety margin provided by the assisted braking must be 100% effective or its somehow worse than a device with no extra safety margin is a really weird take to me.

It’s sort of like saying “seatbelts and airbags are bad because sometimes they fail, better to just not have them”

nowherewrote:

I really don’t understand this  “thumb can defeat the cam” business. Do people not have their hand on the brake strand?  ATC won’t catch a fall that way ever…

the idea that the extra safety margin provided by the assisted braking must be 100% effective or its somehow worse than a device with no extra safety margin is a really weird take to me.

It’s sort of like saying “seatbelts and airbags are bad because sometimes they fail, better to just not have them”

At 11 pages in, it's too late to be resorting to analogies. ;)

Bill Lawrywrote:

At 11 pages in, it's too late to be resorting to analogies. ;)

No way, no analogies is like a car without turn signals, or something, man.

Bill Lawrywrote:

At 11 pages in, it's too late to be resorting to analogies. ;)

12 pages in with a bot op none the less

nowherewrote:

the idea that the extra safety margin provided by the assisted braking must be 100% effective or its somehow worse than a device with no extra safety margin is a really weird take to me.

The trouble with ABD (assisted braking devices) is that many users assume that the device is doing the belaying for them. The user is only there to "assist" the device. It can lead to very sloppy "belaying" (distracting themselves with eating, drinking, peeing, taking insta pics, powdering their nose, saving their sandwich from out-of-control crag dogs ...). And if there is an accident, many of these very same people are very quick to say that the device failed. With such high safety, who cares to read or learn the manufacturers instructions how to use them? These magic devices are so safe that even first-time users are 100% safe after a 20 second demo, right?

Patrikwrote:

The trouble with ABD (assisted braking devices) is that many users assume that the device is doing the belaying for them. The user is only there to "assist" the device. It can lead to very sloppy "belaying" (distracting themselves with eating, drinking, peeing, taking insta pics, powdering their nose, saving their sandwich from out-of-control crag dogs ...). And if there is an accident, many of these very same people are very quick to say that the device failed. With such high safety, who cares to read or learn the manufacturers instructions how to use them? These magic devices are so safe that even first-time users are 100% safe after a 20 second demo, right?

I think there is an unjustified perception that gri-gris are safer after 5 minutes of instruction than an ATC, and that just ain't so. It probably takes the same amount of time to get truly proficient with either.

Even so, the muscle memory required to catch an unexpected lead fall with a Gri-gri is much MUCH easier to acquire. With the ATC, there's a position to assume, you have to consciously grip, so on and so forth.

All you have to do with a Gri-gri is consciously let go of the climber's side of the rope if you're not actively giving slack. More important than getting your thumb off the cam is to get your hand off the climber's side. With an ATC, that hand can help (or at least, won't hurt that much) catch a fall.

With the Gri-gri, death gripping on the climber's side will create the situation where you *can* defeat the cam with just your thumb, during a fall. That's a subtle thing that isn't called out often enough.

Micah, what are you smoking. ... 

nowherewrote:

I really don’t understand this  “thumb can defeat the cam” business. Do people not have their hand on the brake strand?  ATC won’t catch a fall that way ever…

the idea that the extra safety margin provided by the assisted braking must be 100% effective or its somehow worse than a device with no extra safety margin is a really weird take to me.

It’s sort of like saying “seatbelts and airbags are bad because sometimes they fail, better to just not have them”

Have you lead belayed a climber with the GriGri before?