"I can't use a grigri" is a massive red flag?

Healyje… Good to see you here!

Grigri… works great in the experienced hand.

One time I almost watched a person get dropped to the rocks. Seems he showed his partner how to belay with one.
When it was time to lower- a different story. Talking down to the “belayer” explaining how it works….
When he mentioned the word “lever” - it got pulled!!! The only reason a splat didn’t occur was because with the release of the lever the belayer lost his balance, tripped over and put his hands out to stop his face from hitting the rocks- thank God the lever got released.

I’ve always thought the grigri is the best hands off device ever made.

Artem Vee wrote:

Especially if you redirect it through a ground anchor.

Trying to imagine how that would work or why one would bother doing it. Doesn’t seem necessary or useful on multipitch routes.

Guy Keeseewrote:

I’ve always thought the grigri is the best hands off device ever made.

It is 98% of the time, it's the 2% when it doesn't block that's part of the problem, the rest is around what percentage of all grigri users are competent enough such that there will never be a possibility of dropping someone. 

Artem Vee wrote:

I’d say that spawns some extremely dangerous belay habits. If anybody reading this camps their thumb on the cam as default - thats a great way to accidentally drop somebody. I’ve seen it happen.

They go over it in later in this video.

Healyjewrote:

It is 98% of the time, it's the 2% when it doesn't block that's part of the problem, the rest is around what percentage of all grigri users are competent enough such that there will never be a possibility of dropping someone. 

Oh, dear fucking god…can you please provide your source that a GriGri fails once every fifty catches? I’ve heard this from you before, but I’ve been using a GriGri for thirty years now, about one hundred days per year. So, that’s up to 3k belay sessions, catching multiple falls each sessions. So, being conservative, let’s say that I caught 5,000 falls on a GriGri. This means that my GriGri had to randomly fail about 100 times. How many times has this happened? Zero. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Oh, dear fucking god…can you please provide your source that a GriGri fails once every fifty catches? I’ve heard this from you before, but I’ve been using a GriGri for thirty years now, about one hundred days per year. So, that’s up to 3k belay sessions, catching multiple falls each sessions. So, being conservative, let’s say that I caught 5,000 falls on a GriGri. This means that my GriGri had to randomly fail about 100 times. How many times has this happened? Zero. 

I assume the 2% number was hyperbole to make a point.  Kind of like saying not using a grigri is a "massive red flag" in the first place.

ubuwrote:

I assume the 2% number was hyperbole to make a point.  Kind of like saying not using a grigri is a "massive red flag" in the first place.

I read this as if you do not hold the brake then you may get around a 2% failure rate (probably just out of thin air) but based on how the grigri works it needs some tension on the brake to activate the cam. Most of the time this is provided by the weight of the brake strand and whatever friction it makes when flying through the Device even without the hand on the brake. The only guarantee is that a firm grip on the brake will z brake the device even if the cam doesn't engage and 99.999999% of the time it will make the cam engage.

ubuwrote:

I assume the 2% number was hyperbole to make a point.  Kind of like saying not using a grigri is a "massive red flag" in the first place.

What the OP seems to be questioning is that a partner can’t seem to operate a fairly simple, easy to use device. From there, it seems to devolve into a discussion of gym belaying, don’t tread on maw ATC, and the absolute madness of using a gri gri in the first place all on its own, lol!

With new slippery ropes the gri definitely fails. That's what happened to Jim Ewing. I had a terrifying rope Solo experience with a gri gri and a new 9.8. I went right to EMS and bought a gri gri 2 and it still slipped with the new rope. 

Colonel Mustardwrote:

What the OP seems to be questioning is that a partner can’t seem to operate a fairly simple, easy to use device. From there, it seems to devolve into a discussion of gym belaying, don’t tread on maw ATC, and the absolute madness of using a gri gri in the first place all on its own, lol!

Lead belay is where the Grigri is rough.

TR in the gym or anywhere, really, it shines pretty nicely. Nearly everyone can learn to use one for TR. the lowering bit can be tricky and takes feeling the rope feeding through the device as you lower.

Hangar18, SenderOne and a couple others enforce using a GriGri and a couple other devices and provide them as well. And all testing is with a GriGri.

After two weeks lead belaying (60 climbs) with a GriGri, I’ve gotten pretty decent belaying. Agree, it’s relatively simple to learn.

All my partners lead with ATC and we rarely TR.

In fact, at The Post (Touchstone) gym, we are allowed and encouraged to use tube style devices cause “it’s simple and intuitive”. All beginners are required to test with an ATC. Stronghold also ATC, or whatever after testing.

Throughout this thread, the more experienced climbers and ones who’ve led with GriGri know that the GriGri requires an extra movement to feed out slack whilst clipping or during a dyno. Climb, thumb off, feed, thumb on, climb off, clipping on, climb off, feed slowly, etc. There’s two feed methods.

When the thumb is off, you have to ensure the rope is flaked out for the moves at hand. If the rope curls up, the device could easily lock up.

The issues arise with clipping and climbing transitions, it’s far less intuitive.

Intuitive being the natural and physical reaction of any human. Generally, people tighten the grip on something when surprised. I guarantee at least some people will press their thumb harder on the cam lock release during a fall.

Everything is even worse when you can’t see your climber.

This and other reasons are why I don’t see me nor anyone else taking a GriGri outside on Trad, Multi-pitch and especially not on an Alpine/Mountain.

It isn’t a device I’d recommend anyone to use when exhausted, dehydrated and at altitude.

ATC, stitch plate, figure8 or hip belay are all intuitive.

GriGri is great within the gym or single pitch sport crag, but that’s pretty much it.

Artem Vee wrote:

Some poor unfortunate soul is going to take this advice to heart until they realize how wrong it is

… is going to die.

This is why I wrote my post above.

grug gwrote:

Recently went climbing with a new partner. He told me that he can't use a grigri because he constantly short ropes with it. Instead he uses a wild country revo which is obviously superior to an ATC. 

Is this a red flag? Grigris aren't that hard to use. 

Consider an Edelrid Mega Jul combining an ATC function, the functional properties of a Gri Gri and single and double rope use. 

An important caveat: there is currently a recall on this product because of two reported cases of a metal defect. 

Thanks for the reminder, Li Hu. About the only time I use a GriGri  is for gym lead belay when I forget my Revo and so borrow my partner’s GriGri.  Because our gym requires ABDs for lead belay.  

I find it ok. But the GriGri is certainly not my first choice for sport belays. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

With new slippery ropes the gri definitely fails. That's what happened to Jim Ewing. I had a terrifying rope Solo experience with a gri gri and a new 9.8. I went right to EMS and bought a gri gri 2 and it still slipped with the new rope. 

Not endorsed by Petzl so... this would be user error.

Li Huwrote:

Lead belay is where the Grigri is rough.

TR in the gym or anywhere, really, it shines pretty nicely. Nearly everyone can learn to use one for TR. the lowering bit can be tricky and takes feeling the rope feeding through the device as you lower.

Hangar18, SenderOne and a couple others enforce using a GriGri and a couple other devices and provide them as well. And all testing is with a GriGri.

After two weeks lead belaying (60 climbs) with a GriGri, I’ve gotten pretty decent belaying. Agree, it’s relatively simple to learn.

All my partners lead with ATC and we rarely TR.

In fact, at The Post (Touchstone) gym, we are allowed and encouraged to use tube style devices cause “it’s simple and intuitive”. All beginners are required to test with an ATC. Stronghold also ATC, or whatever after testing.

Throughout this thread, the more experienced climbers and ones who’ve led with GriGri know that the GriGri requires an extra movement to feed out slack whilst clipping or during a dyno. Climb, thumb off, feed, thumb on, climb off, clipping on, climb off, feed slowly, etc. There’s two feed methods.

When the thumb is off, you have to ensure the rope is flaked out for the moves at hand. If the rope curls up, the device could easily lock up.

The issues arise with clipping and climbing transitions, it’s far less intuitive.

Intuitive being the natural and physical reaction of any human. Generally, people tighten the grip on something when surprised. I guarantee at least some people will press their thumb harder on the cam lock release during a fall.

Everything is even worse when you can’t see your climber.

This and other reasons are why I don’t see me nor anyone else taking a GriGri outside on Trad, Multi-pitch and especially not on an Alpine/Mountain.

It isn’t a device I’d recommend anyone to use when exhausted, dehydrated and at altitude.

ATC, stitch plate, figure8 or hip belay are all intuitive.

GriGri is great within the gym or single pitch sport crag, but that’s pretty much it.

Pressing your thumb on the cam during a fall isn't an issue as long as you're holding the Device like petzl shows in the manual. Where people get into trouble is when they gorilla fist the Device instead of using the index finger along the ridge and 3 fingers firmly around the brake strand.

Jim was not rope soloing. Regardless that I was rope soloing it still highlights the fact that the device is not hands Free .  Many climber's treat it as a hands Free device. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Jim was not rope soloing. Regardless that I was rope soloing it still highlights the fact that the device is not hands Free .  Many climber's treat it as a hands Free device. 

That would also be user error. AFAIK no device is advertised as hands free. 

To each their own. No one will convince GriGri skeptics to accept this infernal death machine that has been stacking bodies under crags for thirty plus years…and, that’s fine. They can go have fun however they want. I, and many others, have our own small coterie of climbing partners who use ABDs, predominantly the GriGri…and, that is fine also. I’m okay with the Russian roulette that is a GriGri belay, just like others are okay with infallible simplicity of a hip belay. 

Artem Vee wrote:

I’d say that spawns some extremely dangerous belay habits. If anybody reading this camps their thumb on the cam as default - thats a great way to accidentally drop somebody. I’ve seen it happen.

I have too, it happened quickly and was a new rope, climber had a broken back from a 20' grounder onto a padded floor. Those 3 fingers around the rope couldn't do shit,  belayer should  have been feeding rope as you would  with an ATC . 

Does Petzl address the shiny new rope issue?

Li Huwrote:

Lead belay is where the Grigri is rough.

TR in the gym or anywhere, really, it shines pretty nicely. Nearly everyone can learn to use one for TR. the lowering bit can be tricky and takes feeling the rope feeding through the device as you lower.

Hangar18, SenderOne and a couple others enforce using a GriGri and a couple other devices and provide them as well. And all testing is with a GriGri.

After two weeks lead belaying (60 climbs) with a GriGri, I’ve gotten pretty decent belaying. Agree, it’s relatively simple to learn.

All my partners lead with ATC and we rarely TR.

In fact, at The Post (Touchstone) gym, we are allowed and encouraged to use tube style devices cause “it’s simple and intuitive”. All beginners are required to test with an ATC. Stronghold also ATC, or whatever after testing.

Throughout this thread, the more experienced climbers and ones who’ve led with GriGri know that the GriGri requires an extra movement to feed out slack whilst clipping or during a dyno. Climb, thumb off, feed, thumb on, climb off, clipping on, climb off, feed slowly, etc. There’s two feed methods.

When the thumb is off, you have to ensure the rope is flaked out for the moves at hand. If the rope curls up, the device could easily lock up.

The issues arise with clipping and climbing transitions, it’s far less intuitive.

Intuitive being the natural and physical reaction of any human. Generally, people tighten the grip on something when surprised. I guarantee at least some people will press their thumb harder on the cam lock release during a fall.

Everything is even worse when you can’t see your climber.

This and other reasons are why I don’t see me nor anyone else taking a GriGri outside on Trad, Multi-pitch and especially not on an Alpine/Mountain.

It isn’t a device I’d recommend anyone to use when exhausted, dehydrated and at altitude.

ATC, stitch plate, figure8 or hip belay are all intuitive.

GriGri is great within the gym or single pitch sport crag, but that’s pretty much it.

Amazing! I can’t say I agree with anything you’ve written. The gri gri absolutely shines in the gym for lead belaying, it is not “rough”, or for TR only. You can safely feed massive amounts of slack out quickly for clipping and transitions. I’ve used it many, many times on multi pitch trad/alpine where I cannot see the leader. No problem.

Watch petzl’s video on belaying with the gri gri. Seriously, much like some other gri gri experts here, I don’t think you’re describing the correct method. I set aside my own ego and learned their method years back. You are never not in a position to brake and can easily pay out slack: