"I can't use a grigri" is a massive red flag?

There are several levels of age card. 

M Mwrote:

Aren't you the one advocating for the mad rock lifeguard device? What is better about it? I haven't used one.

I have a Lifeguard. I am able to quickly feed slack with it, without doing any of the shenanigans required by the Gri. I do recommend the Lifeguard, which can do all of the other functions that the Gri can. General disclaimer for any device: rope thickness, stiffness, and fuzziness affect how easily slack can be payed out and how effectively a fall can be stopped.

• Edit: Because it’s been years since I tested a Lifeguard and was amazed by how easily I could feed a rope to the leader, I thought I should try a comparison between the one I since bought on MP and a Gri 2. Today I could feed a 10.3mm through the Lifeguard, pushing rope with my left (brake) hand and pulling with my right. I could also do that with a 9.8mm (but not the 10.3mm) through a Gri 2, without defeating its cam. So not a huge difference. 

I am not lacking for partners and I do have a gri gri 2. I also learn new shit all the time but I do not like the do it my way or else crowd... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I am not lacking for partners and I do have a gri gri 2. I also learn new shit all the time but I do not like the do it my way or else crowd... 

I feel like it’s fair game to request the device you want your life to depend on. I’m happy you like to learn new things all the time! 

Setting aside the aspect that there are applications where one device has more advantages than the other (mostly because it seems there are those who are resistant to anything but using a specific device for all applications), if the point of moving to different technology is to improve performance &/or safety, it would be helpful to see actual, hard comparative statistics on the rate of injuries related to one device or the other. I doubt this exists, but the number of dropped climbers related to improper Gri Gri use is undoubtedly at least as high as just about any other device. It's much more about the operator, and much less about the technology. Which is always the case.

Cesar, It absolutely depends on who you are climbing with.  If you are the rope gun you can set the rules. if the other person is the rope gun you might want to think that one through. if you are equals you also might want to think it through before you go demanding things.  

George Bracksieckwrote:

I have a Lifeguard. I am able to quickly feed slack with it, without doing any of the shenanigans required by the Gri. I do recommend the Lifeguard, which can do all of the other functions that the Gri can. General disclaimer for any device: rope thickness, stiffness, and fuzziness affect how easily slack can be payed out and how effectively a fall can be stopped. 

This may warrant at least ten responses from the GriGri folks  

But lead belay with a GriGri is more involved than many other devices.

Li Huwrote:

This may warrant at least ten responses from the GriGri folks  

But lead belay with a GriGri is more involved than many other devices.

If only Madrock wasn't the manufacturer is my response (#1), I wonder where they are made AND I want to demo one

Artem Vee wrote:

Not really. 

It is simple - it would be disingenous to frame it as complex - especially for a group of people as crafty and intelligent as climbers tend to be. If I handed somebody a gri, they would be proficient with it before we finished our climb.

Perhaps so, but there are enough gotchas when using grigris to know that a panic response could result in devastating consequences. It's a shortcoming that I consider part of the grigri's design itself.

The Grigri is also not simple relative to literally any other passive ABD. (i.e. Mammut Smart — up and out, feed slack; down, locked)

9 pages in. Where’s GrugG?  He started this and ran away, hopefully climbing

Somebody choosing not to use a gri gri because they prefer some other belay device is fine. Somebody thinking a gri gri is difficult to use smoothly and safely, however, is definitely a red flag. You just don’t know what you’re doing.

9 pages in. Where’s GrugG?  He started this and ran away, hopefully climbing

grug gwrote:

Recently went climbing with a new partner. He told me that he can't use a grigri because he constantly short ropes with it. Instead he uses a wild country revo which is obviously superior to an ATC. 

Is this a red flag? Grigris aren't that hard to use. 

Rereading this, it sounds more like the new partner was speaking colloquially, and didn't mean they couldn't literally use the gri, but just that they really preferred not to because they want to be a good belayer and not short rope.

We belayed TR this way for an easy 10k+ goes between our small cadre and no one - no one - was ever dropped. And we did endless hard single and multipitch leads with lots of big falls up to 60' simply by adding a swami harness with a non-locking biner on the harness for the rope going to the leader, again, no one was ever dropped.

The grigri on the other hand, by nature of being an autoblocking device that blocks 'almost all the time' - as opposed to a 100% autolocking one - means it's essentially a random dropping generator which is why lots of folks have seen people dropped, know people who have been dropped, or dropped and/or been dropped themselves with grigris. Also, it should be noted it didn't get popular because it's a great belay device, it sucks as a belay device, no, it got popular as a superb if not the best hanging device. The biggest problem with them is assuming they are somehow a substitute for competent belaying and so people demand their use as hedge/backup against [technical] incompetence with the result instead being one of masking incompetence. Can you belay competently with a grigri, sure, but it takes significant learning and attention to do it, but then belaying competently really isn't a matter of devices other than the one between your ears. Overall, I think it's a terrible belay device for what amounts to today's mass of climbers.

Healyjewrote:

We belayed TR this way for an easy 10k+ goes between our small cadre and no one - no one - was ever dropped. And we did endless hard single and multipitch leads with lots of big falls up to 60' simply by adding a swami harness with a non-locking biner on the harness for the rope going to the leader, again, no one was ever dropped.

The grigri on the other hand, by nature of being an autoblocking device that blocks 'almost all the time' - as opposed to a 100% autolocking one - means it's essentially a random dropping generator which is why lots of folks have seen people dropped, know people who have been dropped, or dropped and/or been dropped themselves with grigris. Also, it should be noted it didn't get popular because it's a great belay device, it sucks as a belay device, no, it got popular as a superb if not the best hanging device. The biggest problem with them is assuming they are somehow a substitute for competent belaying and so people demand their use as hedge/backup against [technical] incompetence with the result instead being one of masking incompetence. Can you belay competently with a grigri, sure, but it takes significant learning and attention to do it, but then belaying competently really isn't a matter of devices other than the one between your ears. Overall, I think it's a terrible belay device for what amounts to today's mass of climbers.

Any well rounded climber who has been using one for over 25 years definitely disagrees but nice to see you back and trolling spurt climbers without  missing a step! 

Healyjewrote:

We belayed TR this way for an easy 10k+ goes between our small cadre and no one - no one - was ever dropped. And we did endless hard single and multipitch leads with lots of big falls up to 60' simply by adding a swami harness with a non-locking biner on the harness for the rope going to the leader, again, no one was ever dropped.

The grigri on the other hand, by nature of being an autoblocking device that blocks 'almost all the time' - as opposed to a 100% autolocking one - means it's essentially a random dropping generator which is why lots of folks have seen people dropped, know people who have been dropped, or dropped and/or been dropped themselves with grigris. Also, it should be noted it didn't get popular because it's a great belay device, it sucks as a belay device, no, it got popular as a superb if not the best hanging device. The biggest problem with them is assuming they are somehow a substitute for competent belaying and so people demand their use as hedge/backup against [technical] incompetence with the result instead being one of masking incompetence. Can you belay competently with a grigri, sure, but it takes significant learning and attention to do it, but then belaying competently really isn't a matter of devices other than the one between your ears. Overall, I think it's a terrible belay device for what amounts to today's mass of climbers.

Any well rounded climber who has been using one for over 25 years definitely disagrees but nice to see you back and trolling spurt climbers without  missing a step! 

Healyje wrote:
it got popular as a superb if not the best hanging device

M Mwrote:

Any well rounded climber who has been using one for over 25 years definitely disagrees but nice to see you back and trolling spurt climbers without  missing a step! 

Well, he's not wrong...

ubuwrote:

Well, he's not wrong...

I believe  he speaks from the outside looking in (with a bad view of what was really happening inside) just  like most of the crusties. The Ole "hip belay" comments are pretty good , I definitely want more in 2024! 

Healyjewrote:

We belayed TR this way for an easy 10k+ goes between our small cadre and no one - no one - was ever dropped. And we did endless hard single and multipitch leads with lots of big falls up to 60' simply by adding a swami harness with a non-locking biner on the harness for the rope going to the leader, again, no one was ever dropped.

The grigri on the other hand, by nature of being an autoblocking device that blocks 'almost all the time' - as opposed to a 100% autolocking one - means it's essentially a random dropping generator which is why lots of folks have seen people dropped, know people who have been dropped, or dropped and/or been dropped themselves with grigris. Also, it should be noted it didn't get popular because it's a great belay device, it sucks as a belay device, no, it got popular as a superb if not the best hanging device. The biggest problem with them is assuming they are somehow a substitute for competent belaying and so people demand their use as hedge/backup against [technical] incompetence with the result instead being one of masking incompetence. Can you belay competently with a grigri, sure, but it takes significant learning and attention to do it, but then belaying competently really isn't a matter of devices other than the one between your ears. Overall, I think it's a terrible belay device for what amounts to today's mass of climbers.

I used a waist belay to belay Bill Price on our 2.5 day ascent of the Nose in 1977. Bill on the King Swing uttered, "don't drop me"!!. I didn't.  I've held many falling Climber's with a wait belay.  I was once climbing in Glen Clova ( a Scottish Glen in the southern Caingorms) as a 17 year old when I was in 45 Commando Royal Marines, and Mick Tighe was belaying me. I was runout when I pulled a block off and went a long way. Mick never forgets because he burnt through his new fleece jacket. I noticed in the photo graph that the belayer does not have the 'dead rope' with a single twist around the forearm. This we would always do to add control and increase friction on the dead rope.  Also the arm would be protected by clothing to prevent friction burn.

Any guesses on the drop rate of a hip belay from someone as experienced as healyje, vs a random pick of one of the ‘well rounded climbers of the last 25 years’ using their unidimensional GriGri?

M Mwrote:

…who has been using one for over 25 years…

Well, that accounts for about 3% of everyone who puts on a harness. And even in that small slice of the demographic there’s still dropping happening.