"Simul-climbing" on Alpine Rock Routes

I'm hoping to climb the Grand Teton this next summer via the Full Exum or Upper only. Reading up on the route a lot of people are simuling through most of the pitches on the Upper Exum.

I've learned generally what simul-climbing is - handful of micros, place intermittently, second follows while "belaying", leader stops when they run out of gear/micros, etc. On these alpine rock routes like Upper Exum, though, it sounds like this is not what's happening (and if it is, I think the light and fast among us just got a hernia thinking about the weight of those microtraxions). Is it just shortening the rope on kiwis and trying to keep a piece or two between partners? Just staying tied together like glacier travel?

Could you guys share some insights into what simuling looks like on the low fifth class of alpine rock routes? 

Appreciate any help, thanks!

Jackson Chamberswrote:

I'm hoping to climb the Grand Teton this next summer via the Full Exum or Upper only. Reading up on the route a lot of people are simuling through most of the pitches on the Upper Exum.

I've learned generally what simul-climbing is - handful of micros, place intermittently, second follows while "belaying", leader stops when they run out of gear/micros, etc. On these alpine rock routes like Upper Exum, though, it sounds like this is not what's happening (and if it is, I think the light and fast among us just got a hernia thinking about the weight of those microtraxions). Is it just shortening the rope on kiwis and trying to keep a piece or two between partners? Just staying tied together like glacier travel?

Could you guys share some insights into what simuling looks like on the low fifth class of alpine rock routes? 

Appreciate any help, thanks!

Yeah basically shortening the rope and keeping gear between you, usually without the micros since the climbing is often easier.

It looks like both of the first two things you mentioned, depending on the comfort level of the climbers given the terrain. If you are unsure, probably worth the weight to bring the progress capture devices.

^What they said.   Some very specific situations aside, just Never tie into a rope without at least a few pieces of protection between you.   Otherwise it’s just a foolish suicide pact, and you’re better off unroping completely 

It’s also easy to quickly switch to pitching it out if/ when it seems like the better choice. 

Recommend ~100 feet of rope out maximum while simul climbing unless you’re resorting to normal pitching.

The lower half of the complete Exum ridge might be more pitching. The upper half being easier I like to flake a portion of the rope stacked into my pack. This removes the bulk of the kiwi coil from my chest. I tie in somewhere along the middle of the rope with a rope knot (no carabiners necessary) with the end of the rope inside my pack knot free so as to be able to be easily pulled out of my pack without having to take it off. From my tie in knot, I can take in kiwi coils as needed for having out less than 100’ of rope or my partner can take in coils on their end.  

Perhaps climb 30-50 feet between gear placements.  

The general idea is to keep at least 3 bomber pieces of gear (an anchors worth) or more in between the climbers. Having less than three pieces of gear isn’t the end of the world if both climbers have found themselves on easier or less exposed terrain for a section of “walking” Analyzing your situation on the move to up or down the security level of the team and staying within communication range helps a lot with efficiency.

Call it a running belay. Like a team clipping into fixed pickets while glacier traveling and continuing to move. On rock, it can be nice to have the follower belay  while climbing from nice stance to nice stance. The follower follows with their belay device remaining in the belay position. And they can take or give slack to the leader. Sometimes it will be easy for the follower to move up 20-30 feet while the leader may be moving slower at a harder spot. The follower can go stand in the next “belay spot” and give the leader a decent braced belay rather than a sloppy rope on the ground belay. 

Using the micro’s is optional. They can potentially provide an extra layer of safety, but they are an extra layer of faff/weight/downsides of their own too. Overall consensus is they are pretty nice. Place them intermittently after a tougher section so the follower can have piece of mind there. 

Maybe, If you think you’re going to fall at all, simul climbing may not be right for you at that time or section. Perhaps utilizing a micro traxion as progress capture may be just the extra security you need to continue simuling. Belay from fixed anchors as necessary following a crux section. If you can time doing this with when the leaders is otherwise out of gear then great.

Maybe carry 1-2 of the micro traxion

Clip them directly to the piece of gear. No extension.

There may come a time where you and your partner deem is “safe” to untie from the rope and solo together. At this point if some rope is stacked in your pack, then leave it there and take in the rest with a kiwi or butterfly coil and wear it atop your pack.

Maybe you use the rope to “walk” / climb down or maybe not, but then the rope is easily accessible for the rappel. 

Also good point on the half ropes, I completely forgot to cover that. I have used an 8mm folded over on quite a few ropes (well actually we used it as a full 60m single for the 3 longer technical pitches, but they didn't have any sharp rock, I know we're gunna die). In that case when we shortened the rope we simply had on climber tie in both ends of the rope and the other girth hitched the mid point directly to their belay loop. It was nice to not have coils over the shoulder since we had packs and slings already.

When learning simul climbing, my mentor gave me a super simple acronym so I can remember the three most important aspects of simuling. It's stuck with me throughout the years so I'll share it with you: 

Y.G.D.

When I climbed the Full Exum we used a hybrid approach in terms of pitching/simuling, based on the terrain. We pitched out the Lower Exum since that's steeper/harder "real" climbing. Once on the Upper Exum we simuled the vast majority, stopping periodically to regroup, trade leads, exchange gear, and whatnot. We had 2 progress capture devices (micros or similar) that we only used when needed. I.e. on stretches of really easy terrain (4th-low 5th) we didn't bother with them. But if there was a trickier section (let's say a 40 foot section of 5.4-5.5), the leader could place a bomber piece after and put a micro on it to protect the team if the second were to fall on that part. We weren't breaking any speed records with this approach, but still moved quickly and did the route car to car in a reasonable day.

We had a light rack and one 8.5 mm rope (the old classic Mammoth Genesis half rope.... quite a burly workhorse for its size). A 60 m, I think? This worked for us and we found it to be sufficient for the Owen Spaulding raps (do your own research on that bit though....). For the simul portions I think we shortened the rope in some manner, but don't remember how much and whether we used kiwi coils or just tied in short and stuffed the excess in a pack. That was a long time ago so I may be misremembering details.

Anyway, long story short, Microtraxions are still a useful tool on the Exum, just take a couple and use them selectively. The weight of 1-2 micros (or nanos) is pretty minor, and worth it for the added safety margin.

Big important disclaimer: Do not show up and try these tactics for the first time on-route. Practice and get comfortable/efficient prior to your Tetons trip, in less committing  environments. And don't use a certain approach just because others do it - make your own decisions about speed/safety tradeoffs and acceptable risk level. 

anthhi paramwrote:

Also good point on the half ropes, I completely forgot to cover that. I have used an 8mm folded over on quite a few ropes (well actually we used it as a full 60m single for the 3 longer technical pitches, but they didn't have any sharp rock, I know we're gunna die). In that case when we shortened the rope we simply had on climber tie in both ends of the rope and the other girth hitched the mid point directly to their belay loop. It was nice to not have coils over the shoulder since we had packs and slings already.

"anthhi,"

Where do you usually climb?

Lots of good comments. Didn’t read all very closely.

Usually, the partner less likely to fall is the follower though progress capture devices may influence that - can’t say I’ve been consistent about whether the better climber follows when PCDs are involved.

There is a trap to be aware of in my opinion. Climb speeds will vary. Slack may build up for which the follower can take up slack with a brake assisting device and later let it back out when needed. When the rope goes about all back out, the trap is if the follower feels like they need to climb faster than they are comfortable, increasing the chance of them falling. I usually tell my simul partner to not worry about the rope going tight. And then I lead as though the rope could go tight, and even then the tension will build slowly with 100 feet of dynamic rope between us.

JCMwrote:

Big important disclaimer: Do not show up and try these tactics for the first time on-route. Practice and get comfortable/efficient prior to your Tetons trip, in less committing  environments. And don't use a certain approach just because others do it - make your own decisions about speed/safety tradeoffs and acceptable risk level. 

This point needs to be emphasized. Simul-climbing is bordering the dark arts of climbing, such as lead rope soloing and free soloing. You're operating in a gray area in terms of safety and best practices, where clear-cut procedures are not a given, and everyone has to make some individual decisions about what methods will provide them, personally, with enough protection to keep the odds in their favor if something goes wrong, like a hold breaking. Think of simul-climbing as being closer to simul-soloing—would you be confident to free solo the terrain? Do you trust your partner to free solo the terrain? If yes, then simul-climbing with a rope can provide enough added security to allow you both to climb faster, being slightly less concerned about a foot slip or hold breaking, etc. Unlike free soloing, if you encounter a tricky spot or get off route, you have rope and gear at hand to quickly anchor yourself or get a real belay. The added burden, is that you have to be vigilant about how the rope is running, what it's clipped to, and what risks you pose to your partner with each move and vice-versa. 

I feel like the Insta-culture encourages beginners to jump into this stuff way earlier than they should. The flood of online tech tips can make these practices appear so simple and common. Frankly, I was a solid 5.10 trad leader, nearly a consistent 5.11 trad leader—by that I mean onsighting while placing gear the vast majority of the time—before I started dabbling with simul-climbing on the Nutcracker (5.8) in Yosemite. And I was regularly onsight free soloing 5.8 by then too. The point is, you need to be very, very consistent and well-rounded as a climber, and versed with the essential systems of gear placement, anchor building, rope management and route finding before you have any chance of simul-climbing "safely" with a partner.

To the OP, this is mostly a long-winded way of saying that if you have to ask if simuling is right for you, it probably isn't. Instead of gunning for the full Exum car-to-car, go bivy at the Lower Saddle and pitch out whatever you need to. Take your time. Build a foundation of experience, and you'll have more fun doing it. The goal should be to enjoy moving through, and learning about, a wild environment. FKTs will come naturally down the road if you put in the time to master the basics to the point that they become second nature.

Old-man lecture over. I wish you a long and fulfilling career in the mountains, and a happy trip up the Grand.

Jackson Chamberswrote:

Could you guys share some insights into what simuling looks like on the low fifth class of alpine rock routes? 

When I've done it, or seen it done, its usually by very experienced climbers who are moving fast enough on a long enough route to justify its use.

Upper Exum climbs quickly by just pitching it out.  No need to simul climb it.  Especially if you haven't climbed it or climbed at all in the Tetons before.

To add anecdotal data point to the very well written post above me:

I have tons of experiencing simul-climbing as leader and follower. I’ve done the complete Exum and uncounted other higher altitude rock climbs.

I would not choose to simul climb the lower Exum. We pitched it out to wallstreet the free soloed to the top from there. The two halves are that different.

We camped at the Moraine. Predawn approach, started up the route as soon as it was light enough to see and were on top before noon. I’m glad we didn’t try it from the trailhead!

DF -- personally, I think it depends a lot on the angle/terrain. My feeling is that your view might be coming more from a 'rock climbing' and not 'alpine climbing' point of view, which while related, have very different outlooks on things. In the context of vertical or near-vertical terrain, I totally agree with you -- I would feel uncomfortable simuling with someone who can't trad climb 5.10 at least. But if it's low-angle 'easy 5th' terrain, like what you might find on the Teton? That's a different story. 

As an example, I have a friend with extensive scrambling experience -- solo multi-day trips with lots of class 3/4 nonsense, that kind of thing. Max trad lead grade is like, 5.8 probably. Personally, I would feel completely comfortable simuling with him on a 5.easy alpine ridge (ie, horizontal and blocky). On the other hand, I would feel wildly uncomfortable simuling with him on a 5.6 vertical trad climb. Even something like cathedral peak would be unnerving. 

This is all to say -- if the terrain is mountain-flavored rather than rock-flavored, simulling is a lot more appropriate, as long as your partner is comfortable on exposed but easy terrain. If it's vertical, I'd really rather not.

This post isn’t directed at the OP:  

Progress capture devices reduce the risk of having the less strong climber simul-follow. Brake-assisted belay devices reduce the risk of not thoroughly checking out your belayer. Hiring a guide arguably reduces risks from the client’s perspective.

Making all this risk reduction so readily accessible may not be taking climbing in a healthy direction. What is “healthy”? I guess fewer people out in the wild and those that do go are more likely to have an appropriate set of skills?

Michael Sandlerwrote:

DF -- personally, I think it depends a lot on the angle/terrain. My feeling is that your view might be coming more from a 'rock climbing' and not 'alpine climbing' point of view, which while related, have very different outlooks on things. In the context of vertical or near-vertical terrain, I totally agree with you -- I would feel uncomfortable simuling with someone who can't trad climb 5.10 at least. But if it's low-angle 'easy 5th' terrain, like what you might find on the Teton? That's a different story. 

As an example, I have a friend with extensive scrambling experience -- solo multi-day trips with lots of class 3/4 nonsense, that kind of thing. Max trad lead grade is like, 5.8 probably. Personally, I would feel completely comfortable simuling with him on a 5.easy alpine ridge (ie, horizontal and blocky). On the other hand, I would feel wildly uncomfortable simuling with him on a 5.6 vertical trad climb. Even something like cathedral peak would be unnerving. 

This is all to say -- if the terrain is mountain-flavored rather than rock-flavored, simulling is a lot more appropriate, as long as your partner is comfortable on exposed but easy terrain. If it's vertical, I'd really rather not.

Sure, I've done the same type of simul'ing you describe with less-experienced partners. The exception for us is that our situation involves a more experienced climber leading a less-experienced climber, not a team of two newbies. Which isn't to say two newbs wouldn't be fine simul'ing on the Upper Exum, in which case they would probably have enough experience to make an assessment for themselves if that was a safe option. My comment was geared more in general to a question that seemed to be based on a perception that everyone is doing it, and so I should too. I merely wanted to underline a prudent point that might offer some guidance for would-be simul-climbers who are trying to wrap their heads around what's what. It's great that other climbers shared their experiences of climbing the Exum without needing to do any simul-climbing—evidence that mastering the basics can allow you to move quickly enough even if you're pitching it out. It's all about understanding yourself and what you're doing.