New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #26

boygenius made npr’s 50 best albums of 2023 list. And I heard about them here first. Cool stuff

ETA they also have a tiny desk concert on npr but they appear to be a trio which I don’t understand based on the info in this thread

In all my climbing I can only think of one route that I climbed more than twice in a year.  That one took us about 10 tries to do and I never bothered to work that hard on a route again since it is way more fun to go climb 30 other routes rather than bang your head against the same one over and over.  So tor someone to suggest that doing a fully ticked and practiced V10 route is any more 'cowboy' than people who just 'sent' runout trad 5.12 routes every weekend, is plain stupid and shows a lack of understanding of what being 'cowboy' really is.

Colden Darkwrote:

boygenius made npr’s 50 best albums of 2023 list. And I heard about them here first. Cool stuff

ETA they also have a tiny desk concert on npr but they appear to be a trio which I don’t understand based on the info in this thread

The three lead singers sometimes play what they call an "acoustic set," just the three of them with guitars, no band.  (The guitars might not actually be acoustic...)

Jan Mcwrote:

In all my climbing I can only think of one route that I climbed more than twice in a year.  That one took us about 10 tries to do and I never bothered to work that hard on a route again since it is way more fun to go climb 30 other routes rather than bang your head against the same one over and over.  So tor someone to suggest that doing a fully ticked and practiced V10 route is any more 'cowboy' than people who just 'sent' runout trad 5.12 routes every weekend, is plain stupid and shows a lack of understanding of what being 'cowboy' really is.

I’m one of those weirdos that do laps of routes at my local crag on top rope over and over each weekend and quite enjoy it. It can be nice finessing a route to the nth degree and I feel ‘lappage’ can be good for fitness and endurance. It’s certainly the opposite of cowboy.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I’m one of those weirdos that do laps of routes at my local crag on top rope over and over each weekend and quite enjoy it. It can be nice finessing a route to the nth degree and I feel ‘lappage’ can be good for fitness and endurance. It’s certainly the opposite of cowboy.

I'm also one of those weirdos. If I refused to do repeats, I'd never be able to climb again.

Idaho Bobwrote:

For cardiovascular fitness few exercises offer the benefits that can be achieved by doing intervals, running or on a bike.

What kind of intervals do you do, Idaho Bob? HIIT? Do you measure anything or just wing it?

Donald Thompsonwrote:

Hey dragons, sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I haven't noticed any detectable difference in putting my cardio before the strength training other than it was somewhat dodgy to get accustomed to at first.

Thanks for sharing your experience in doing Zone 2 prior to strength training. I think in the olden days doing any kind of cardio on the same day as strength was considered a bad idea. I'll see if that works for me.

As I mentioned I don't do much in the way of monitoring. As I detailed in my last post I sometimes use San Millan's "talk test" to gauge if I'm in Z2.

I hate the talk test because I'm just talking to myself.

I did watch a couple of interviews that Attia did with San Millan back in July: this one and this one. Those interviews are what prompted me to try Zone 2. I was trying to build a base to improve VO2 max and HRV. IIRC, Zone 2 is supposed to improve your HRV, and then VO2 max training about one day per week is supposed to improve your VO2 max, and that's good for longevity.

The problem was that I never found my HRV improving. At the time I thought "well, I'm probably not really doing Zone 2" because I was using my heart rate as a proxy, and they say you really have to measure lactic acid to be sure you're in Zone 2. After I quit, I thought that next time I'd try just bumping up my heart rate a bit to see if that helped any.

Maybe I should just do the talk test.

Across the available data fields there are 2 things that consistently predict for a decreased risk of all cause mortality in aging populations:

1. High VO2 max

2. Strength and muscle mass

You may have heard Peter Attia talk about data on this: 

If you are over the age of 65 and you fall and break your hip or femur your chance of death over the following year is about 20%.  Of those survivng  such an injury those walking will go to a cane, those on cane will go to walker or wheelchair.

The best way to lessen the possbility of these outcomes, or improve things if you sustain such an injury ,  is strength and stability and balance training.

It sounds like you've read Peter Attia's Outlive? I've read that... it was pretty good. I have been "following" Attia for much longer than that (first heard him on the Tim Ferriss show).

Generally, I think he's pretty credible, but I don't trust him 100% (he exudes confidence and certainty, and he has done so in the past, and then later changed his mind on things. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, but he just seems a little too certain about things at times).

I think some of that info still confuses correlation and causation. It seems to me to read "if you're over 65 and fit, then you're less likely to die, but if you're unfit you're more likely to die (if you break something)." Which seems obvious. Then high VO2 max and strength are proxies for being fit.

Anyway, training for these two things seem like a good way to get fit, and also give me something to measure. So I'll probably try Zone 2 again. I was already doing strength training, not sure how to make much progress there other than what I'm already doing. What I've found is that when I get injured, the strength training and other forms of exercise go down the tubes. Then I become unfit. I don't see how Attia or anyone else address this problem. It seems to get worse with age. A few weeks without training at my age does a lot more damage than when I was 20.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I’m one of those weirdos that do laps of routes at my local crag on top rope over and over each weekend and quite enjoy it. It can be nice finessing a route to the nth degree and I feel ‘lappage’ can be good for fitness and endurance. It’s certainly the opposite of cowboy.

Makes sense. I boulder and get that finesse bit. I also enjoy many different climbs.

I don’t really understand the definition of “Cowboy”? Didn’t they simply travel the exact same routes to deliver cattle to and from the same locations?

“Having basically no future, unlimited fitness, and a will to keep pushing the envelope made those things possible.”

I am going with the above words from Russ as my working definition of “Cowboy”. And I don’t mean to diminish the power of climbers who had all of this in their youth. But perhaps it has come full circle for some of us.

with all due respect to Guy and some others here, that urge to push the envelope, have unlimited freedom and go all in does not require a certain amount of gear or a certain amount of travel. Maybe it’s an attitude.

There is the minor point that we have to be at least a little circumspect in order to live to see another day and it is true those statistics about a broken bone. I pull back a lot so I can continue to push ahead. I am kind of suspecting that this is a character trait of many older climbers.

dragons, how cool that you are working on Fitness so intently. I don’t know if you have checked out the Whoop Locker resources, but they have been so helpful to me. It’s easy to google, and they have both articles and podcasts on all matters of fitness, sleep, nutrition.

I am not able to move my HRV more than a few points. What I watch every morning is the amount of quality sleep I got the night before and that HRV number. A couple of things have moved that needle for me. One is Meditation and the other is Massage even if it’s short and sweet. What I have been able to improve is my recovery after a really hard day of climbing which is also important. I’m not sure how much zone 2 I get into but when I go for my frequent hikes if they go on for three or four hours and includes an hour or more of scrambling, it does just feel right.

I do also watch my “strain score” on the Whoop, and I’m sure you could do the same with various other measurements during the day. With the Whoop, there is a Strain/Exercise reading from 0 to 21, 21 being the theoretical max that you can never attain. So when I see a whoop score of 20.3 I know I am in big trouble. I have completely gone to my limit And I better start doing recovery work ASAP. And it’s a little humiliating to know that Alex Honnold, doing the same exercise on the same day, would have a strain score of probably 5. So much for “unlimited fitness“.   

Li Huwrote:

Makes sense. I boulder and get that finesse bit. I also enjoy many different climbs.

I don’t really understand the definition of “Cowboy”? Didn’t they simply travel the exact same routes to deliver cattle to and from the same locations?

Cowboy being synonymous with pioneer is how I'd describe it. Dangerous work in out of the way places. Like Jan said, a well rehearsed line fully ticked up is not "cowboy".

dragonswrote:

What kind of intervals do you do, Idaho Bob? HIIT? Do you measure anything or just wing it?

Road bike intervals - I have a hill about 200 m long with about a 12% grade.  Ride into it in big chain ring, fast, keep maximum effort to the top.  Repeat. 

Treadmill intervals - Manual control, 2 minutes walking @ 3min/mile pace,  then 4.5m/mile for 1 minute, then increase pace in .5min/mile increments for 1 minute, each followed by 1minute @3.  After 6mph interval, 2 minutes @3, then repeat.  Total time 22 minutes.  Check hart rate at each walking interval with goal of maintaining it in the "red" zone.

Track intervals - First, know your 1 mile pace.  Say it's 6min/mile which is 90 seconds/quarter. Run quarter (or 400m depending on the track) at a pace of 85 seconds.  Walk one lap.  Repeat.  Keep going to exhaustion.  It helps to have one or more partners to share the role of pace setter.  This is a program to use in preparing for 5 and 10k events.  BITD we had 10 guys in our running club that ran intervals once a week.  Two groups, the speedy guys did 65 seconds and my slow group did 75's for 12 intervals. After which rehydration with beer was mandatory.  

I think I'm going to be the control group for all of you who are doing and measuring things I don't even understand.

Don't discount the value of cheesecake to performance!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YXl1evV_spo

Wendy: Rhonda Patrick is a good place to start. She just posted this yesterday.

Thanks Donald, but I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "control group."

This is what I recommend for cardio:

Prancercise

And the video so y'all can follow along

T

wendy weisswrote:

Thanks Donald, but I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "control group."

Oooo kay

I’ve read Peter Attias book twice now, and it has definitely motivated me to do more Zone 2 work. I busted my ankle in an avalanche years ago, and running is out, but we have good uphill hiking nearby so I do that. Dr. Attia rides an exercise bicycle inside, but I can’t imagine a less inspiring form of exercise.

I do have a problem with his “Four Horsemen” in that he doesn’t mention medical errors, which are the third leading cause of death.  Obviously, if you break something, go to the hospital.  But DO NOT go for elective surgery if you want to live to a hundred.  Friend of mine’s mom was in her 80’s and walked a few miles a day.  But her knee bothered her some, and she wanted to be able to walk more.  Bottom line, she got a C Dif infection during the surgery and is dead.

My interval training lately has been a 5 mile, 2000' climb on my new full squish 29er:

Followed by:

I'm not jumping yet but the flow trails shown in the latter half of the video are absolutely a riot. The transition from 90's hardtail to a modern slacked out 29er has been interesting. These new bikes just rip! I've also switched from clipless to flat pedals. Hence, the no jumping part until I'm consistently staying "one with the bike" :)

Tim Schafstallwrote:

This is what I recommend for cardio:

Prancercise

And the video so y'all can follow along

  

T

Definitely good training for alpinism and “flow” sports!