New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #26

Lori Milas wrote:

OK well, Sail Away, that’s not fair!  

  I know - but it was funny!

Lori Milas wrote:

Actually, I think it would be a great win-win if the park service would give me a little permit to go to some of these climbing sites with a pair of hedge clippers and grass blowers and clear some paths. Has anyone seen how Jeff Constine keeps up his tick rock? It’s like a Japanese tea garden there and boy does he give people hell if they drop stuff on his ground. He has a nice little rake and a couple chairs. It’s very lovely.

But speaking of anchors – – which we weren’t – – I saw a little video this morning of one of our Guide services training some interested persons in bolting and rebolting various routes. It made me a little uncomfortable to think that anyone could head out with a drill and some chalk and go to town on rock. I understand that you need a permit now to do most of this, but after watching this video, I can see why they came down hard. I’d just as soon not have to wonder whether newby bolt driller did a good job or not.  Some things I take for granted without even realizing it for instance, if Bob set up a top rope for me, it’s gonna hold no matter the difficulty of the route. I have certainly seen some fellow climbers tie in on routes so sketchy you wonder how they’re still alive.

Lori,

I'm assuming that you were joking about the hedge clippers, etc., as that type of climber impact to natural resources is the real concern.

In reality, climbers aren't going to town and bolting routes on rock at Josh. Not even close. And, that has nothing to do with the Park's proposed rules. 

Lori Milas wrote:

Other than the guy who recently died free soloing Illusion Dweller, I see no evidence of anyone being back there.  I'm really asking, is this kind of climbing over?  Has it been taken over by bouldering, sport climbing and the safety of the gym? 

What's the problem here?  Is it too hard?  Too "old", passe?  Maybe trad climbing (here) has just lost its charm.  

Short answer is yes.  

Slightly longer answer is the VAST majority of modern climbers are not interested in risk.  Everything is safe now, from talking shit (keyboard warriors are abundant), to clipping bolts every 8 feet, to really good cams and air bags in cars.  Risk is slowly being eliminated from everything.  Way back, being attached to this world would hold you back.  Having basically no future, unlimited fitness, and a will to keep pushing the envelope made those things possible.  Today, everything is geared toward staying alive and ending up being a boring old coot that never once aired it out or even got near enough the edge to take a peek.

My understanding is that the guy giving info on bolting is a local who has done a lot of work replacing old bolts here in JT. He has put in a lot of time and effort making many routes much safer. The guy he was mentoring is a local climber who, I assume, is also interested in working to make things better. This as a far cry from heading out with a drill and going to town on the rock.

Russ Walling wrote:

Short answer is yes.  

Slightly longer answer is the VAST majority of modern climbers are not interested in risk.  Everything is safe now, from talking shit (keyboard warriors are abundant), to clipping bolts every 8 feet, to really good cams and air bags in cars.  Risk is slowly being eliminated from everything.  Way back, being attached to this world would hold you back.  Having basically no future, unlimited fitness, and a will to keep pushing the envelope made those things possible.  Today, everything is geared toward staying alive and ending up being a boring old coot that never once aired it out or even got near the edge to take a peek.

The dude who broke his back bouldering in Josh recently disagrees. Bouldering, while being a bit mind numbing and not very technical besides where to place all the pads, is pretty darn risky. I think its just a desire for easy because hard is, well, hard!

rgold wrote:

Brandt, my excuse for age-inappropriate sartorial choices is that my daughter Sarah is the keyboardist for boygenius.
Here they are rehearsing for a recent SNL performance. 

HBD rgold!  Really appreciate your dialog.  And...Boygenius is great!  Caught that SNL gig when it aired and was great!

Cheers!

Russ Walling wrote:

Short answer is yes.  

Slightly longer answer is the VAST majority of modern climbers are not interested in risk.  Everything is safe now, from talking shit (keyboard warriors are abundant), to clipping bolts every 8 feet, to really good cams and air bags in cars.  Risk is slowly being eliminated from everything.  Way back, being attached to this world would hold you back.  Having basically no future, unlimited fitness, and a will to keep pushing the envelope made those things possible.  Today, everything is geared toward staying alive and ending up being a boring old coot that never once aired it out or even got near enough the edge to take a peek.

Well, leave it to you Russ for an answer. I appreciate the clarity.    A week ago when I was climbing on little hunk and crossing the dike about halfway up, Bob hollered “this is where the adrenaline starts pumping if you were leading.” I responded that I had plenty of adrenaline already, but looking down that long sheer wall, I could see that this would be a fall that could be deadly. I can see it on these seldom climbed routes with a scarcity of bolts and I feel inspired by the danger and fearlessness—but what adventure!

So maybe this isn’t how it is anymore. Cowboys are long gone.  

(not a major thing, but I’m still trying to get my thoughts around 25 people climbing Illusion Dweller in a single month. I guess I need to query some statistics, but this adds up to almost one route per day and that’s not a quick route to set up or climb and I have personally never seen a soul back there except me. Of course I’m not there every day. )

Lori Milas wrote:

So maybe this isn’t how it is anymore. Cowboys are long gone.

Really?  On this very thread, one small example...a guy who trots barefoot through the snow and jumps into a hole chopped in the ice?  Yikes!

Maybe the cowboys all live in "the kingdom"...ha ha.

(Anyhow...respectfully disagree).

Where Have all the Cowboys Gone

PS. Happy BDay to you RGold!

Yeah Fish!!

It’s all over the map. One friend just did a big route in the Himalaya another wants to avoid any perceived risk. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

there are far more climbers and boulderers laying it on the line then the old days, its just that the vast majority are as Russ describes, but there are just soooo many more climbers now. 

Definitely there are way more crowds at certain places, mostly at easy to get to boulders and easy to approach sport. Way more cars, cameras and even drones too, the video above of the Buttermilks shows that! I frequently see drone shots of the Happy boulders parking where parked cars are lined up for a mile! BITD you might see 20 cars there and maybe a handful at the Buttermilks. 

I'm definitely wondering how these (lots of drone)videos fit in to being good stewards of the land. 

Since I know there are lots of young lurkers reading this I'll add an OK BOOMER to end this post.

Yeah, I think all the Cowboys are gone. After reading all these posts, and on some other threads as well, I suspect everyone here has a bit of danger in them. I have less than zero interest in lining up at some crag to do a 5.8 sport route. I like the rattlesnakes, and I like admiring Russ’ route on tumbling rainbow. After years of having so many rules, a button-down job, kids house all those things you have to behave for… I have been gunning for my personal edge. As a 70-year-old woman, that may not be much but I’ll take what I can get.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105723430/where-have-all-the-cowboys-gone

Apparently to Saddle Rocks.

If "cowboy" designates a climber (not only guys) with an sense of adventure, not risk adverse but not careless, doesn't need a GPS or InReach, owns at least a double rack and a quiver of ropes and shoes, and travels widely,  then, my experience says that cowboys are alive and well. However they are not likely to be found where the crowds gather.  

Hey dragons, sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I haven't noticed any detectable difference in putting my cardio before the strength training other than it was somewhat dodgy to get accustomed to at first. From a time- use perspective it may actually be better in that my strength stuff, being indoors,  goes much easier than being out on the trail or road into the late afternoon dark hours this time of year . Up here in the mountains it gets cold, dark, and handsome pretty quick. 

As I mentioned I don't do much in the way of monitoring. As I detailed in my last post I sometimes use San Millan's "talk test" to gauge if I'm in Z2.

The overriding significance of Z2 training is that it is targeted to improving mitochondrial functioning. Your mitos prefer to burn fat as fuel. Burning fat bypasses the insulin system and produces less metabolic waste. But it requires more time, hence the fact that fat  burning kicks in at a low heart rate zone relative to glucose burning. Staying in that zone on a regular training schedule or during a performance phase trains the mitos to burn fat more efficiently to provide energy for slower twitch muscles, and other more down-regulating processes.

This approach has been at the forefront of many stellar athletic performances over the last several years such as Pogacar's in the Tour De  France ( coached by Dr. San Millan).

Edit:

A word about VO2 max.

Across the available data fields there are 2 things that consistently predict for a decreased risk of all cause mortality in aging populations:

1. High VO2 max

2. Strength and muscle mass

You may have heard Peter Attia talk about data on this: 

If you are over the age of 65 and you fall and break your hip or femur your chance of death over the following year is about 20%.  Of those survivng  such an injury those walking will go to a cane, those on cane will go to walker or wheelchair.

The best way to lessen the possbility of these outcomes, or improve things if you sustain such an injury ,  is strength and stability and balance training.

Just to be clear about the Facebook post that Lori was referring to earlier, I will quote some of what was written.

       "..._____, a local J-Tree and Idylwild crusher who has been actively learning to rebolt for the past year....   [We did] a deep dive into the curriculum I've been building. It was extremely rad working with him to round out the bolting knowledge he's been gathering.... _____ is a supremely awesome individual, and it's ALWAYS amazing getting to work with stewards who care about the land we climb in."

I know that Bob and others have also done a lot of bolt replacement over the years. It's a lot of work and those who do it should be recognized for their efforts.

Brandt Allen wrote:

I know that Bob and others have also done a lot of bolt replacement over the years. It's a lot of work and those who do it should be recognized for their efforts.

Thanks Brandt. It's pretty rare that I find a bolt anchor at Joshua Tree that I won't trust, but this is one of them (those are 1/4-inch button-head Rawls) that I came across just last week, at an obscure crag, while prospecting for new routes. I plan on replacing it as soon as I get the permit from the Park Service.

Donald Thompson wrote:

Across the available data fields there are 2 things that consistently predict for a decreased risk of all cause mortality in aging populations:

1. High VO2 max

2. Strength and muscle mass

If you are over the age of 65 and you fall and break your hip or femur your chance of death over the following year is about 20%.  Of those survivng  such an injury those walking will go to a cane, those on cane will go to walker or wheelchair.

The best way to lessen the possibility of these outcomes, or improve things if you sustain such an injury ,  is strength and stability and balance training.

For cardiovascular fitness few exercises offer the benefits that can be achieved by doing intervals, running or on a bike.