A gentle rant: You don't know if you can do it unless you give it a full effort try.

M Mwrote:

I can say for sure my smile is way bigger after a day of 5.7- cruising than it is after projecting one single 12+. Do you.

I'm so sorry.

TravisJBurkewrote:

I enjoyed (my personal understanding of) what the OP was getting after...the idea of taking a problem and putting yourself through the crucible to burn away excuses...a rock climbing problem...I believe it can be interpreted differently for some of the differing comments--not simply try harder and harder, but try and believe what is possible for yourself (what can you do to improve your chances of success on X problem--not "if you try hard enough, you will succeed on Silence.")  Then take into account those aspects of frustration that are truly out of your control (injury, age, responsibilities, etc...)

I know I could climb harder if I drank a little less beer, but this is within my control.  So if I want to send harder, I am unable to say, "This move is impossible," moreso, "Given my current life choices and decisions, I am unable to complete this move now..." which puts the responsibility back on myself (EXCEPT for conditions, because we all know conditions are make or break! Hahahah).  The trick is to not feel angry at oneself for not accomplishing the objective, but identifying where improvement could be eked out.  And I love the one response of "I haven't done that yet..." vis-a-vis "I can't."  It's definitely helped my climbing switching my thinking into what might be at the barest edge of possible...

I'm glad someone got it.

And yes, Tradiban's responses were gross, cruel, and uninformed.  But he revels in being some sort of anklebiter or something, so I guess he got what he wants from the exchanges.

Nothing I hear second-hand has caused me to regret my choice to use the "Ignore user" feature on Tradiban.

David Kwrote:

I'm glad someone got it.

Nothing I hear second-hand has caused me to regret my choice to use the "Ignore user" feature on Tradiban.

I was agreeing with you!

David Kwrote:

I'm glad someone got it.

Nothing I hear second-hand has caused me to regret my choice to use the "Ignore user" feature on Tradiban.

You can quickly click on the post to see, if curious (I just did for you!). It goes right back to minimized. Ignore user is pretty nice though, it’s saved me tons of collateral “look at me” post reading of that driveling puppy guy.

Just an opinion piece but from an expert:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/15/opinion/addiction-disease.html

Tradibanwrote:

If you decide that you want to be happy psilocybin may be able to help:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/psychedelic-treatment-with-psilocybin-relieves-major-depression-study-shows

More about shrooms:

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/magic-mushrooms-a-growing-trend-among-local-moms/509-9d9b11a5-4663-47d4-8034-979646fab6e0

Tradibanwrote:

More about shrooms:

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/magic-mushrooms-a-growing-trend-among-local-moms/509-9d9b11a5-4663-47d4-8034-979646fab6e0

Oregon Legalizes Shrooms

Tradibanwrote:

Oregon Legalizes Shrooms

Prince Harry and Psychedelic Therapy

Tradibanwrote:

Just an opinion piece but from an expert:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/15/opinion/addiction-disease.html

This is another part of all of this that you and I likely have more ground in common than not!

But? Where did you want to go with these last links? (It's a real question, in what is a good discussion. Disagreeing can mean more back and forth, more information. Not a bad thing, imo.) 

Earlier, you seemed to advocate a "no drugs needed" approach to mental health issues. I think we both agree with most on here that it can be complicated, and nuanced, at the least. But, the last links are drugs again. Psychoactives, and potentially very powerful ones.

So? Throw in more of your take, eh?

And thanks, too! 

Best, Helen

David Kwrote:

I hear this all the time: "I know I can do it. It's just that _______."

To that I say: bullshit. If you can do it, prove it by doing it. Talk is cheap. What the excuse is, literally doesn't matter. There's not an excuse that makes this anything other that posturing. I've been on climbs that I thought I would get in a few minutes, that took me months to get. Don't do this to yourself. Believing you can do something you can't do, prevents you from working on it and gaining real ability. Ego will hold you back.

I also hear this: "I can't do it!"

Again: bullshit. This is a little less annoying because it's not as much an ego thing, but it's not any more rational. Did you try it? Did you really try it? I've been on onsights where I've felt the holds, believed in my deepest heart that there was no way I could pull the moves... and then immediately pulled the moves. Believing you can't do something you can do, prevents you from trying it and seeing that you actually can do it. Fear will hold you back.

You don't know what you can do until you really push yourself all the way to the limit of your abilities, and either do it, or don't. Climbing gives us the opportunity to find out what we're really able to do, and what we're really not able to do.

Stop saying you can or can't do things. Not because I say so: do it for yourself. Get right sized about your abilities. Anything else is holding you back.

EDIT: Yes, obviously sometimes backing down is the right choice. I never said otherwise. But if you back down, you don't get to say "I can do that, I just didn't want to risk it", because you don't know if you can do it. And likewise, you don't get to say, "I can't do that, it's too scary", because you don't know if you can do it. The truth is, you don't know if you can do it, because you didn't try. It's sometimes wise not to try, but that doesn't mean you have to make up a story about it.

Edging skills or hospital bills

Old lady Hwrote:

This is another part of all of this that you and I likely have more ground in common than not!

But? Where did you want to go with these last links? (It's a real question, in what is a good discussion. Disagreeing can mean more back and forth, more information. Not a bad thing, imo.) 

Earlier, you seemed to advocate a "no drugs needed" approach to mental health issues. I think we both agree with most on here that it can be complicated, and nuanced, at the least. But, the last links are drugs again. Psychoactives, and potentially very powerful ones.

So? Throw in more of your take, eh?

And thanks, too! 

Best, Helen

Shrooms are not pharma drugs but big pharma is poised to monetize them.

For a trite recap, “depressed” people who blame everyone and everything else for their problems (or lack of sends) aren’t really depressed, they’re just selfish.

For those who do blame themselves, stay away from pharma drugs and choose your friends wisely, your friends are your support group.

Finally, choose to be happy.

Tradibanwrote:

Shrooms are not pharma drugs but big pharma is poised to monetize them.

For a trite recap, “depressed” people who blame everyone and everything else for their problems (or lack of sends) aren’t really depressed, they’re just selfish.

For those who do blame themselves, stay away from pharma drugs and choose your friends wisely, your friends are your support group.

Finally, choose to be happy.

Thanks, sir! 

This post, I can pretty much agree on, start to finish, although for myself, "choose to be happy" isn't exactly it. More like, if I'm at all inclined toward anything more helpful, hop on that quick, and don't talk yourself out of it. My only real objection earlier (and in general, usually) was it being stated or suggested that a non drug approach is the right choice for everyone, every time. An absolute.

Considering pharma trials all have to stack up against a placebo, to me, that placebo effect shows just how powerful our own brain chemistry can be! So we likely can influence things a fair amount, for good or bad, but brains are still part of a system that can misfire.

Big (fill in the blank with too many things) is poised to monetize everything, in our country, then try to monopolize the rest of the world too. That's sort of necessary, ish, maybe/maybe not, sometimes, but also a giant and sometimes close to criminal part of what's gone hugely wrong, imo.

Thanks again for the reply. If you're in CA, hope nothing you care about is washed out to sea! Talked to my bro in law in Marin county last night. He and the neighbor have been digging drainage diches through the yards to get the water to the street. Sheesh.

Best, Helen

TravisJBurkewrote:

I enjoyed (my personal understanding of) what the OP was getting after...the idea of taking a problem and putting yourself through the crucible to burn away excuses...a rock climbing problem...I believe it can be interpreted differently for some of the differing comments--not simply try harder and harder, but try and believe what is possible for yourself (what can you do to improve your chances of success on X problem--not "if you try hard enough, you will succeed on Silence.")  Then take into account those aspects of frustration that are truly out of your control (injury, age, responsibilities, etc...)

I know I could climb harder if I drank a little less beer, but this is within my control.  So if I want to send harder, I am unable to say, "This move is impossible," moreso, "Given my current life choices and decisions, I am unable to complete this move now..." which puts the responsibility back on myself (EXCEPT for conditions, because we all know conditions are make or break! Hahahah).  The trick is to not feel angry at oneself for not accomplishing the objective, but identifying where improvement could be eked out.  And I love the one response of "I haven't done that yet..." vis-a-vis "I can't."  It's definitely helped my climbing switching my thinking into what might be at the barest edge of possible...

And yes, Tradiban's responses were gross, cruel, and uninformed.  But he revels in being some sort of anklebiter or something, so I guess he got what he wants from the exchanges.

Here’s why that doesn’t work:

“First, by focusing climbers’ attention on mental health issues, these interventions may have unwittingly exacerbated their problems. Lucy Foulkes, an Oxford psychologist, calls this phenomenon “prevalence inflation” — when greater awareness of mental illness leads people to talk of normal life struggles in terms of “symptoms” and “diagnoses.” These sorts of labels begin to dictate how people view themselves, in ways that can become self-fulfilling.”

Source

Did you actually decide to--nearly a year later--come back by taking an NYT opinion piece on teenage depression, falsify a quote from it, and use that as evidence as to, "why (identifying climbing-specific controllable weakness and either improving or accepting) that doesn't work?"

Good grief, Charlie brown. If mtnproj hadn't done it's little alert thing...

TravisJBurkewrote:

Did you actually decide to--nearly a year later--come back by taking an NYT opinion piece on teenage depression, falsify a quote from it, and use that as evidence as to, "why (identifying climbing-specific controllable weakness and either improving or accepting) that doesn't work?"

Good grief, Charlie brown. If mtnproj hadn't done it's little alert thing...

I like to update this thread when I come upon relevant material. Depression is an on going issue in our “community”.

You can read the full article in the link I provided.

Tradibanwrote:

I like to update this thread when I come upon relevant material. Depression is an on going issue in our “community”.

You can read the full article in the link I provided.

Lesson 1 - Assumption: Obviously I read the source prior--how else would I have know it was a NYT Opinion piece on--and this is key here--a study that found disparate and potentially negative effects of mental health interventions on...and this is specific...teenagers. 

Lesson 2 - Avoiding fallacies: Conflating teenage mental health intervention with a sport such as climbing is a logical fallacy--a false analogy.  If we are discussing climbing and the underlying theme of recognizing where weakness lies and challenging said weakness, it would behoove you to use an examples of potential setback in another sport vis-a-vis an entirely separate branch of science with a totally different user group. 

Lesson 3: Understand your source: The researchers themselves proposed that failures in the program may have stemmed from lack of engagement and/or feeling overwhelmed. The opinion writer then proposes first your misquote (Dr. Saxe notes teenagers' mental health) but then--and this is important--states, "Teenagers, who are still developing their identities, are especially prone to take psychological labels to heart." Dr. Saxe continues noting that perhaps intervention methods were enacted at the wrong place/wrong time and with possibly non-applicable practices.  Unlike targeted intervention in climbing--Lattice is a particularly good example of targeted intervention: "I cannot do this move because I lack the strength," leads to assessment as to what is the actual issue against a large data set.  

Dr. Saxe continues that the intervention, "...offered enough information to highlight a problem, but not enough to fix it," and continues with a set of potential improvements. Sound like a potential coaching program, or working specifically on thin cracks or hard slab or leading head game?

Dr. Saxe concludes with a short set of recommendations for improved structural change that would improve teenagers' mental health more so than specialized mental health curricula.

Lesson 4: Arguments in good faith: This goes beyond your pugnacious "hot takes" but is an issue with the internet as a whole.  The OP focused on changing mental state from one of "cannot" to one of "how do I get to 'can'" in the climbing realm. So you seem to think that intervention in the climbing realm cannot work because...of a study on teenagers' mental health? Does the OP mention mental health issues or does the OP (in a boisterous way, certainly) focus on the mental aspect of performance--because (and the OP agreed) it sure seems the latter. But instead, you used bad faith to construct yourself a poorly informed and insulting soapbox.

Earlier in the forum, you confused your personal feelings towards mental health as the prescription for all. Having fought the real Taliban, I can say you can proudly stand by your moniker.  Good luck in all your future endeavors.

TravisJBurkewrote:

Lesson 1 - Assumption: Obviously I read the source prior--how else would I have know it was a NYT Opinion piece on--and this is key here--a study that found disparate and potentially negative effects of mental health interventions on...and this is specific...teenagers. 

Lesson 2 - Avoiding fallacies: Conflating teenage mental health intervention with a sport such as climbing is a logical fallacy--a false analogy.  If we are discussing climbing and the underlying theme of recognizing where weakness lies and challenging said weakness, it would behoove you to use an examples of potential setback in another sport vis-a-vis an entirely separate branch of science with a totally different user group. 

Lesson 3: Understand your source: The researchers themselves proposed that failures in the program may have stemmed from lack of engagement and/or feeling overwhelmed. The opinion writer then proposes first your misquote (Dr. Saxe notes teenagers' mental health) but then--and this is important--states, "Teenagers, who are still developing their identities, are especially prone to take psychological labels to heart." Dr. Saxe continues noting that perhaps intervention methods were enacted at the wrong place/wrong time and with possibly non-applicable practices.  Unlike targeted intervention in climbing--Lattice is a particularly good example of targeted intervention: "I cannot do this move because I lack the strength," leads to assessment as to what is the actual issue against a large data set.  

Dr. Saxe continues that the intervention, "...offered enough information to highlight a problem, but not enough to fix it," and continues with a set of potential improvements. Sound like a potential coaching program, or working specifically on thin cracks or hard slab or leading head game?

Dr. Saxe concludes with a short set of recommendations for improved structural change that would improve teenagers' mental health more so than specialized mental health curricula.

Lesson 4: Arguments in good faith: This goes beyond your pugnacious "hot takes" but is an issue with the internet as a whole.  The OP focused on changing mental state from one of "cannot" to one of "how do I get to 'can'" in the climbing realm. So you seem to think that intervention in the climbing realm cannot work because...of a study on teenagers' mental health? Does the OP mention mental health issues or does the OP (in a boisterous way, certainly) focus on the mental aspect of performance--because (and the OP agreed) it sure seems the latter. But instead, you used bad faith to construct yourself a poorly informed and insulting soapbox.

Earlier in the forum, you confused your personal feelings towards mental health as the prescription for all. Having fought the real Taliban, I can say you can proudly stand by your moniker.  Good luck in all your future endeavors.

“Climbers” nowadays are basically teenagers and all this relates back to Peter Pan syndrome.

It’s the lack of coping skills that hold people back from stability but the good news is it’s never too late to learn.

JFC